James Richardson

Will Bachman 00:01

Hello, and welcome to Unleashed the show that explores how to thrive as an independent professional. I’m your host Will Bachman and I’m here today with James Richardson, who’s got a PhD in anthropology from University of Wisconsin Madison is actually studying anthropology at Harvard. While I was there, we overlap by a couple years. James is the founder of premium growth solutions that works mostly with startups, CPG companies, and we’ll talk about that he’s the host of startup confidential podcast, and is the author of ramping your brand. James, welcome to the show.

James Richardson 00:41

Thanks for having me. So I had no idea that we were at Harvard at the same time,

Will Bachman 00:45

well, yeah, we overlapped a couple years, I took a, I took a cultural anthropology intro course there and loved it is so cool. I never took more courses. But a good friend of mine was majoring in anthropology there. But we’ll talk about that some other time offline people that we know in common. But it’s so cool that you pursued it. And I want to start right in the middle here, what you you got your PhD, but then you ended up working for, like 14 years at the Hartman group, which is a firm that does a lot of work, kind of market research, and so forth. Believe what does a PhD in anthropology, know about marketing and about symbolism and about, you know, what motivates us that a marketer who got a typical education with maybe an MBA or has been a brand manager maybe does not know. So what is the what does your training and approach teach you about marketing?

James Richardson 01:56

It took me a while to figure this out, I have to confess that well. In the beginning, I was as lost as your brain is right now. So I, this is what I’ve distilled, I guess. One is that we, you know, as cultural beings, we learn to associate various kinds of meanings. With symbols in our, in our social life, and spy symbols, I mean, either words or phrases, icons, things like that. These are the things you don’t actually spend time thinking about. Because we just know what they mean. So in a sense, you boil it down, we’re, as anthropologists are experts and unders is sort of decoding meaning in society, how it works. So I didn’t come into, like CPG, marketing, necessarily knowing more than like a good brand manager did about like the drivers behind purchasing categories, your ex. I think that the edge is that you’re able to ask questions, you have very few assumptions. So you ask questions that I think people with a traditional background, don’t

Will Bachman 03:18

ask, what are some of those questions?

James Richardson 03:21

So the questions would be you say like, this was one that came up again, and again, when I researched organic food adoption, like, Alright, you say you’re into organic food, that’s a claim in social science, we can someone says it says that we classify as a claim, right? They’re claiming that they, they do something. Now we don’t really know what they do. Right? So when you adopt that social science, skepticism, and that’s what I generally don’t, didn’t find a monk and don’t find out classical train marketers the skepticism around the claim. So someone makes a claim on a survey or something else, generally, you want to look for some other evidence. The problem is in traditional marketing, that’s expensive. Now, you could hire people to do multiple studies and all this stuff. So what we were doing at the hardware group, we were saying, we were working with very big companies were skeptical that organic food was never going to be a real deal. I’m talking like 2002 2003. So they were bringing a business skepticism to the sector. So they want to understand adoption and whether this would ever take off. So we join them in that skeptical journey, right? Here’s an aberrant behavior. Let’s figure out why people adopt it. The problem is when people give you their first explanations, it’s not always that meaningful. So we would often hear in interviews, hey, oh, it’s because I just want to be healthy. I’m like, and we’re sitting there going well, there’s all sorts of health symbols you can buy right next to the organic food. You can buy the low fat cracker refund rates. So when you refuse to take people’s initial answers, at face value, you become essentially a social scientist, whether you’re professional or amateur. The problem that I noticed when I started working up the chain with marketers at big public firms, they tend to moving so fast in the meeting to meeting doubts, that they’re not spending enough time interrogating and interpreting the information they collect, they’re just taking it at face value, they’re taking the PowerPoint at face value. The PowerPoint was generated from consumer insights per person who hired an external agency. So you start to see the telephone problem. So you have, you have this thing of consumer behavior, and then you have how that’s narrated inside of the company. And I think what we were helping clients do was go into an area of the market that they, they look, they looked at as fast growing, but it didn’t make any sense to them. From the perspective of the irrational unit price economics, they made no sense to traditional marketers. In consumer packaged goods, because they’re calibrated to warm like basically everything Walmart’s controlling 30 to 40% of their brands business, you know, so basically, it controls most of the decisions on the channel managers didn’t start to Walmart, and then start, then you move on to the rest of the market. So you start looking at marginal things like natural organic market share, incursion, until business, people are very skeptical. And when you don’t want to take something seriously, as a business person, because it’s an annoying aberration. If you’re following me, your your tendency is to not soak in the information and think critically about because you’re looking, you basically have a predisposed, you’re predisposed to find an answer, which is that this is not a good use of my time. So I’m answering your question, but not literally, because what we found, what I found is a social scientist was most of my work, was actually getting people to understand the BS assumptions that we’re making as business people about the market, about this niche. So we could get them to pay attention to what was actually happening. But when you’re sitting at a desk running, you know, managing 10 billion of revenue, you can imagine you’re not going to sit there and fuss over what’s going on with 5% market share in your category. So to get them to take it seriously was a challenge. And so what I learned as a social scientist, which wasn’t a huge surprise to me, but I think how much time we had to spend on in meetings on it was, which was, how do we, one thing is to do the behavior research and to do it really well. The other thing is to communicate that research to people who I think quite rightfully, are full of assumptions about what matters in terms of information about the consumer. So if I find the company with what doesn’t, what doesn’t matter, is what’s going on in the premium end of the market, because the average market share will is 12%. So if I think sometimes it’s 1%.

Will Bachman 08:20

So if I think about like, my mental model of how anthropologists work, I’m thinking about asking people about sort of kinship networks and mapping those out in detail for a village. I’m thinking about sustained observation of people in their environment. So it might mean like, living with people or living in the village, sort of furnace sustained period, where you watch people how they go about their business, or maybe, and I, and I’ve done all that. Yeah. And you’ve done that, right. And what was your What was your PhD research on, by the way?

James Richardson 08:58

I studied. I studied public identity expression amongst a highly stigmatized, closeted group in southern India who were educated untouchables, okay, living in urban. So they had that identity they desperately didn’t want you to find out about. And then they had other identities they were shoving in your face as much as they could, namely class. So that was what it was an interesting to me. And it was a theoretical thing that fascinated me at the time. You know, one of the things that carries over from community studies that you’re just referring to, because most of anthropology is built on in depth, small scale community studies, I did it. I did it too, for my dissertation because my my laboratory was a suburb, in this Indian city, the difference between what people aspire and claim to aspire to versus what they do, versus understanding why they actually do certain things they aspire to and not other things, is that’s really the bedrock of good Community anthropology, because you have to be able to figure out what is just noise? And then what are the what are the real value systems of that local community? It’s really no different than what I was just talking about in terms of why do people adopt organic food? You’ve got to understand what are the portals to that world? What are the drivers and where where are they going to make claim that they aspire to something in the interview, that has nothing to do with behavior. So the method we used was called the is still used by many other firms as the country choice. So we would have, we would sit down, and this is no different than what I did in India, too, we would sit down, and we would do interviews with people in India, and we would do them around organic food adoption. And the interview would start like, like, a good FBI negotiator, we just build rapport, we, it’s called softening. in Turkish, you soften them up, you display a lot of mirroring statements. In other words, you pretend to agree with a whole bunch of the stuff, they just say, they get a nice circle up here. This is actually what good metrics consultants do when they go into work. For the people, they can’t stand. So you mirror, you soften them up, you get in, and then you get them to say you bet them, you ask open ended questions where they get to sort of spill out their, their ideals, their values, as they see them. And then you sort of transcribe that and you put it in a box, and then you go observe. So the small scale version we’re able to do for the food industry was okay, we just spent an hour learning about your lifestyle, what you do your value systems, a whole bunch of contextual information that might help us later have no idea. But now we want to go see how much of what you claimed is bullshit. This is what we’re thinking to ourselves. So then we go and look for the artifacts, because the funny thing about purchases, you know, it’s a lot more, it’s a lot more connected desperation than what I might say, to a stranger in my living room. And that’s when we uncovered weird things. So we would have people who claim to be really frequent shoppers at Whole Foods. And they were when they corroborated, but what they were buying at Whole Foods was like a third of their grocery spend. So we go to their pantry and there’s Oreos.

Will Bachman 12:40

You would do these interviews directly in people’s houses.

James Richardson 12:43

Oh, God. Yeah. So we get them to claim x y&z and we’d steer it obviously towards the topic, which is, how did you get into organic food? That’s so cool. And so we’d phrase it like that, to get them to open up. And then they would usually, people love to talk about themselves and why they make decisions. Americans educated Americans love to talk about the adamant social decisions as long as they can frame that as morally secure. So this is a very easy group to talk about their values. The problem is, it’s not always right, what they’re claiming. So you get into the pantry and find out Oh, oh, they say they’re into organic food. But what they really mean by that is organic produce genic milk, organic eggs. And fancy ass meat. That was a very common permutation, especially in Texas. But the rest of the pantry was like a packaged food. It’s just, and then during the pantry tour, we would see now we’ve got an hour and a half a report. And we’ve been buttering them up, at least. So now we can start challenging. And so this is where we had to take what normally what would have done a community study wills, we would have just done an hour, we would in our interview, I would have spent 18 months observing the behavior. And that’s what I did. So we have to develop, we had to develop a concentrated way to sort of get that measurement to aspiration behavior figured out in two hours. So we use the artifacts to create a counterpoint. So hey, I notice you have Oreos who eats the Oreos? Oh, I did. Well, that’s cool. So you can see what So then, you know, this information led to category specific adoption finding. And that’s what we learn. Some of our most, some earliest package reports are actually correct. The symbols of purity like organic, actually are very niche, and they’re very late to be adopted in highly processed, packaged foods. And I would tack on personal care as well. 20 years ago, so then that’s what he wanted. I was like, Oh my god, do I have a problem? Do I have to do a line? That’s basically what they’re asking. That’s the business question Do I need to do a damn line extension. And some did, like Frito Lay went out really early. And the reason they did that is has to do with the dynamics of how profits made it Frito Lay at the household level and buy it out, when it’s made in family households, kind of the families were starting to convert to organic, and they Frito Lay just likes to be ahead of the market, they don’t like to have a problem with market share. So they’re very, they’re brilliant organization that launching stuff five years ahead of when it’s from a business perspective. And they have a company that allow people to do that, which is rare, in CPG, which is mostly reactive industry. And that’s, you know, that’s why Frito Lay still has 85% market share than ever. They’re always ahead. Right. So I think when you and they were early on, to use social scientists as well, to inform, not to inform silly stuff, like the ad campaign, but to inform strategy. Yeah. Because it’s about figuring out Oh, wow, we make a lot we make a ton of our money from affluent moms, or or with 45 people in the house. And they consume a ton of Lay’s, right, we cannot afford to lose 10%. And, you know, smart people really can see those early signals. So they one of the first brands to actually hire the hardware group and other folks to go in and figure out what’s the what’s the issue here. And you’ll notice that today, Frito, lay is 100% Whole Foods ready, usf-i ready, natural business, and it was not in 2002. When I started in this industry, it had transferred oils. That quietly happened, right? So and so that’s one way you can make a very big business decision based on getting way ahead of where high value consumer base is going. But you got to be open to the information. Like the cranky, can I My favorite is safe. Sara Lee, the cranky Sara Lee, General Manager, literally when we heart when we work like that. There’s challenge everything’s

Will Bachman 17:26

so what what you’re describing the kind of that in house visit, I can see how that very tightly ties to kind of anthropological approach and training. Other other aspects of anthropology that you’ve brought over or that you can use flying like one of them I haven’t, particularly I’m curious about is anthropologists are particularly attuned to culture, particularly as it expressed and sort of stories or symbols in that community that tie that community together. Talk to me about that a bit about sort of symbols.

James Richardson 18:08

Yeah. So I think one of the things that I encourage founders to do because I work mostly with early stage, fast growing companies is finding the decoding the one or two lifestyle occupational subcultures in America that their brands are already speaking to that they didn’t realize that they now need to create sort of a tribal focus obsession. And you’ll be surprised that not all companies that grow fast have figured this out.

Will Bachman 18:38

Can you give me an example of what this looks like?

James Richardson 18:41

Well, we had like, let’s say I’m trying to thank my friends at juneshine cuccia, are doing really well. And they built that business in San Diego, deep into the seven figures in one city. And they did it because the founders are servers. And you might imagine a certain community happens to be one of those recreational communities that you know, is mass is super tightening network. And when you enter into it, it almost becomes a cult, right when you enter that lifestyle. So part of that has to do with having to get up at three in the morning. But a part of is just the lifestyle of being a surfer, right? So they don’t know each other. So almost anything you send into a group like that, that they like, will start spreading. So one of the things that comes here and apologists are good at figuring out is when or a social scientist is like when does a branch when has it achieved that sort of tribal status and just sniffing around I’m looking for that. And so I do help people sort of look for that and measure that. refine that And you know, as for the story part, that’s usually something that I stay out of with the exception of decoding the key. The key outcomes that are driving purchase for an early stage company, and those outcomes usually are cultural. Now, this is the thing that classically trained marketers they use, like lien states or benefits, they actually are trained a lot in school and on the job, how do we find, you know, the need state, so the benefits that our brand can be associated with? The interesting thing is that my experience at least that has less value for fine tuning has enormous value for a $10 million store. And the reason for that has to do with the power of persuasion in society. So if you’ve got something that’s coming into us to any kind of social group that’s marginal, it’s got to be processed. And at first, it’s weird, and weird, has to be determined has to be processed. This is bad, weird. Like, is this a threat? Or is this something it’s weird, it’s foreign, it’s alien, but we can make use of this in food culture in America, this happened. This has happened hundreds of times, immigrants have come into the country. So number one, we’re the number one dinners in America is pasta. No Americans eating pasta before we know who brought in. So these things have all happened before. But you have to have a, you have to have a way to ask questions about this symbol. To see whether or not it’s weird or stigmatized. So I help founders with that, because sometimes they put stuff on their package, which means a lot to them. It’s actually really, really freakin weird. Weird and off putting humans hates new symbols. Anything new, when they can’t make meaning of it, they can’t make sense of it becomes a threat. This is primate biology. It’s millions of years old. So you’ve got to make sense of it. And then you can determine become comfortable, you may not like it, but at least you’ll be comfortable. It’s the same thing with with startup brands that I work with when there’s when you’re bringing in new symbolism that’s an alien to the mainstream sort of Walmart shopper. He got to find a group of people that are predisposed to making abled and being able to make meaning of that symbol really quickly. So an attribute like kombucha which is really a category, but originally it was just an attribute in the tea category. Who’s going to make sense of that first? Well, it was specific subgroups in Southern California. And this is all done, study that sort of history. But you can actually see this going on in businesses in real time, because you can go out to your fan base. And you can do very simple open ended surveys. And sort of collect information of who is buying your thing. And if you can put that puzzle together, you can discover things that kind bar, for example, I talked about, like what they discovered early on, which is that they’re all these yoga teachers in the late 2000s, who are buying kind by the case, they were handing it out in at the end of their classes, or selling it in their yoga studio. And kind bar picked up on this. And you know, they did they hired them. They hired the yoga teachers, because a lot of yoga teachers at that time were part timers. So they had lots of free time. So what did they do that hired them to go and do real marketing. They hired their fans, who were recreational influencers, in a growing fitness industry to be the field marketers, very different from like, if you go to a field marketing agency, and just hire some dude, or female, just switches t shirts all day. This is someone who really likes to write. And they know why they like it, their specific outcomes. And that’s some circling back to the outcome thing. So once you can get to that tribe, they will tell you so taneous Lee, the killer outcome, and that’s what’s the killer outcome that’s making them go from trial to buy in cases of something. And I wrote my book ramping your brand about this whole process because I try to help founders created so that they can grow exponentially. And the exponential growth it you know, it sounds maybe over idealistic, but it to me, it’s really like if you want to scale your business, this is the path that the data shows you need to take. Because if you grow any slower, you’re going to get taken over by someone else who’s going to take the idea.

Will Bachman 24:49

From your, from your book, ramping your brand. Yeah, what are two or three of the key messages that you’d want to communicate to Um, you know, to, to your ideal audience sounds like your ideal audience for that book is people that are running fast growing consumer packaged goods, startup type companies trying to grow those very quickly. What are some of the key messages that you have to share with those with those founders

James Richardson 25:20

understand the difference between pace, growth pace and the pace to scale. And I’ll be honest, that’s hard for some management consultants to figure out because they tend to be trained on big business. The, the exponential curve that’s in the foundation of the book is one that it’s a curve in which everybody proves what’s going on in the business and in the first five years, because there’s no scale, doubling every year, but there’s no scale. So everyone knows. Now that that’s the strategic asset that exponential growth business has is that everybody’s ignoring, which is what you want. You want to essentially be, at least from the biggest players, okay, so. So being able to be patient enough will, to grow fast. But scale slowly. So that’s a really big point. The second point,

Will Bachman 26:20

I’m sorry, I don’t quite get that, I’m sorry, grow fast, but scale slowly. Just break that down for me a little bit.

James Richardson 26:27

So growing fast, like grow, doubling your business every year off a small base doesn’t take you to scale very quickly, right? If you start at, say your first year was a quarter million, you can open up Excel and then see the numbers for yourself, it’s going to take you seven to 10 years to get to $100 million, if you’re doubling every year. Yeah, that’s a slow pace to scale. For most people listening to this classically trained, and who may have worked in a public company, and done product launches. You don’t you don’t get promoted at PepsiCo. For a launch that goes to 1 million that keeps doubling every year. You get shunted around the corner to trash collection, you know, at Pepsi you launch and you want to create an ad $120 million in the first year. Right, so but your point that that’s not what your point is for growth, that’s instantaneous scale, that’s not a growth,

Will Bachman 27:19

right? Your point is for a startup, you know, getting to 100 million after seven years would be would be great.

James Richardson 27:26

It’s very rare well, but it’s the absolute, it seems to be the eye of the needle want to get yourself through because when we when we looked at a case study set, which is not statistically sizable enough, at the time, it was about 200 kind figure premium business natural organic businesses that had gotten to 100 million plus. So when we looked at that, you know, 200 or so reverse engineered how they got there, and three quarters of them grew exponentially. So part of it was sneaking up on the market, part of it was that they were built correctly. So that’s my second message was this issue of creating a product which is so well positioned? in its innovativeness that it generates phenomenal viral memorability, people talk about it immediate. They talk about their friends, they talk it up in their tribal networks, right? If you if you get launched in a tribal network, like surfers, or yoga teachers that are going to talk it up if it’s really good if you launch it into a group of market researchers who don’t talk to anybody. So not every social network is useful, but some are just good.

Will Bachman 28:51

And what that drive,

James Richardson 28:53

yeah, if you can try if you can become memorable in that tribal group, you get something called warding market. Which is

Will Bachman 29:01

what are some of the case examples you’d like to share for that kind of

James Richardson 29:07

the big ones are vitta Coco, coconut water was done this way. Vitamin Water was actually built this way. So it was so long ago, that nobody remembers the journey. 200 million in Southern California, but it was done through aggressive field marketing. I don’t know how much it was based on social networks, but I know that kind of going. That’s how I got the 10 million. And my friends at juneshine are another example I know of. Some of the word of mouth is now happening online. Right? So people it’s very easy for people to share, like a funny video on YouTube. Without even much of a story. So don’t just let the video do the do the marketing for you. But this issue about being memorable is it’s It’s easy to say and right but it’s actually very hard because people are assaulted with so many new products. So if you can design something that’s going to really it’s almost tailored to a specific group, and the kind of an outcome that they care about, right? So Vito Coco was trying to remember which which fitness subculture got that thing going. But it was definitely one that was warranted hydration in California and think that they were offering them a new modern cool way to be hydrated. Right talk because coconut water, coconut water is naturally an electrolytic drink.

Will Bachman 30:39

Yeah. Let’s let’s start about let’s talk about your podcast for a minute. Your podcast is startup confidential, been doing it since 2019? Talk to me about what sort of impact that podcast has had for you, as it, you know, directly resulted in I mean, in the folks that the kind of folks that you interview are potential clients, right? So have you, you know, found any clients from your guests? Or have you found clients from people that they referred to you or that were listeners of the show, a lot of our listeners are, you know, might think about potentially starting a podcast, you know, as a business development approach, what’s been your experience.

James Richardson 31:23

So I, it’s been very positive. And I’ll be really honest, this is one of those things I write about, I have a whole part in my book called managing a small experiment, which is like, the beauty of not scaling too quickly as you gives you a couple years, it gives you years to figure out how to find mine’s not. So I I went, here’s why I started a podcast, I started a podcast, because the traditional b2b, networking, venues, channels, social networks, that existed in what they call the natural products industry, I was shut out. They won’t give me the time of day. Brian, so as a classic sort of experience of marginalization, and that’s not going to work, like I can’t network my way into these. Because they look at me as an outsider. I won’t bother explaining why, but they did. So that didn’t. So I said, I’ve got to get a way to build trust with people out beyond just posting on LinkedIn, in the best. So the best way I could think of was, well, what if I do a monologue show? that’s built off my main strategy, which is, hey, here’s, here’s the stuff, no one’s telling you that. So I took, I’m exaggerating a little bit by total rejection of what I’m talking about, like the trade shows, all the places where consultants in my industry go to find this, they will have been attacked. In fact, some of them are complete, asshole. And I took that rejection, quote, unquote, and I said, that’s the thing. There’s stuff you need to know, people are not telling you. At the primary venues of information sharing, like the keynote at a trade show, you’re not gonna hear the stuff I’m telling you is not what you’re gonna like. And so it’s all about how can I create a stream of content that would captivate people? Because no one else was willing to do it right. And that would bring in the audience and then hopefully, it would build trust in me that I’m on your side. So that was the goal was how can I get in front of folks and get them from knowing about me to saying, I trust this guy. I’ll give him my email address, his list or whatever, right? So I guess you would call it classical markers. We’ll call it the middle of the funnel, right? How do we move them down towards merchants? And that’s usually in b2b that’s definitely like a mega trust building. issue. And I had been reading about podcasts as this way they literally it’s almost like a bedtime story of eating. You get inside your leads a year or into your life. It’s like you talk straight to them. It’s like, even if it’s only 10 minutes like my my podcast is short form. It’s a snack size. Because it’s mainly monologue. I do have guests I’d love to three guests, but the problem was guests. For me. I didn’t want to get striven, sure there’s a lot of work. I’m also As you’ve probably already figured out, I’m super picky about who I think is an expert. And to be honest, there just aren’t that many people, there aren’t enough people to fill years of show. Because I want the best of the best when I bring somebody on,

Will Bachman 35:20

yeah, and what and what’s been the impact? Have you had people reach out to you from the show?

James Richardson 35:25

I mean, almost everybody wires me now. It’s like your show. It’s definitely been working with the trust building side. And what, what I found was, well, it’s bringing me the people. That is that I didn’t realize were perfectly adapted to working with these people. They’re trying to they’re, they’re new to the industry. They’re not, they don’t necessarily MBAs. Some of them do, but they don’t. They haven’t. they’re new to the industry. They, they realize that it’s very complex, and there’s a lot of stakeholder Bs, that they’re being fed. They don’t know how to get past the BS. They would like a guide. They want to professionalize, they work really hard. And I would say this is probably only about 10%. You know, of the folks in the seven, eight figures. There’s a lot of people in early stage companies that they’re happy with the 20 million or so they’re not going to become iconic, because they want they can keep it a 20 million, they’re happy. But the folks that come to me really want to really want to scale but they don’t have, they don’t have the prestigious venture capital firm with some rock star CEO or something. So they’re the ones who need they feel lost, in a sense, because there really isn’t anyone who’s speaking to them. That’s what I accidentally and they end up being the perfect clients for me because they want to professionalize. They already work hard. They have the product.

Will Bachman 36:59

Alright, fantastic. Well, some so yeah, it’s

James Richardson 37:02

worked really well, I think the challenge is you got to, you actually have to put like two years into it.

Will Bachman 37:09

Before you start seeing. See,

James Richardson 37:11

before you start getting enough anecdotes like, hey, it’s like your podcast, as you’re talking about. It takes a while. I mean, I wasn’t in the center, but I hit record number 433 shortall for business

Will Bachman 37:27

podcasts in the US. Wow. That’s great.

James Richardson 37:31

You know, it just took time.

Will Bachman 37:33

So for for folks that would be like to follow up with you. You know, we’ll include a link to your book on Amazon in the show notes. And what other links Would you like to give any other websites or ways for people to follow up if they want to get in touch.

James Richardson 37:49

So I encourage people to go to the websites that want to learn more about the book, www dot cramping, your brand calm. If you want to know more about what I do that said that would be found at premium growth solutions calm or be no a founder who’s working their butt off and wants to scale, then you might send them to the founder resources page on my website. There’s lots of free stuff. There’s some webinars, I routinely run I run quarterly trainings on strategic planning for founders to DIY it. That’s usually right before they. But people like that that webinar for variety of reasons. So lots of resources there. There’s even a book reading lists for folks who are new to CPG and want to want to bone up on some things. Lots of free stuff.

Will Bachman 38:49

All right, well, we will include those links in the show notes. James, thank you so much for joining today.

James Richardson 38:57

Thanks for having me.