447-Michael Wise

Will Bachman 00:01

Hello, and welcome to Unleashed the show that explores how to thrive as an independent professional. I’m your host Will Bachman. And I’m really excited to be here today with Michael Wise who is a former Green Beret and former McKinsey alum and now doing executive coaching. Michael, welcome to the show.

Michael Wise 00:21

Well, thanks so much for having me.

Will Bachman 00:23

So Michael, we both spent some time in the military, you were in much better physical condition than me at any time in my life. I’m a submarine officer, we, we typically were more limited in our, in our physical fitness opportunities. But, um, so I maybe just start with, I mean, I want to hear what you did, and when you were a Green Beret in the army.

Michael Wise 00:48

Sure. So I started in the Green Berets as an enlisted man. And I was a medic on the team. And so the role I played there was basically the doctor where there is no doctor and, you know, I got just enough training and all the different specialties that I could I could be dangerous and, and, and be useful in some situations. And so during my first two appointments to Afghanistan, I served as the as the team medic versus the junior medic, and as a senior medic and, you know, ran a clinic, in addition to training indigenous forces, that the primary mission of special forces is to work with indigenous forces to kind of accomplish a broader mission. And so we’re whereas a traditional infantry battalion might might take 500 people and put them on the ground somewhere, you know, you could send a special forces otaa, that’s the main that’s what we call our teams doesn’t have us and then we would interact with with, you know, foreign forces to kind of accomplish to have a much lighter footprint, much less expensive footprint and have a have, ideally a similar impact. And so first two deployments where as a medic serving in that capacity on the team, and then my last deployment, I was a warrant officer, so an assistant team leader and a team leader, there,

Will Bachman 02:00

how does one become a medic? What’s we similar thing on a submarine, we have a corpsman as opposed to not having a there’s not a doctor on board and a corpsman who was awesome to have, you know, any kind of medical issues came up? How, what’s the training, like to become a medic? Did you have any medical training before you join the military? Or do they just give you all the training you need?

Michael Wise 02:26

So for me personally, I was when I was in the regular army before I went to Special Forces, I was a medic. So I had I had a couple, I had basic basic EMT training, when I arrived into the special forces into the training pipeline, but the the training pipeline doesn’t, doesn’t require you to have previous medical background and so you go through a pretty rigorous selection process. And then once you’re selected for the to undergo further training, they they look at your aptitudes and scores and say, well, we’re gonna assign you this language, and we’re gonna assign you to the specialty and so for me, that was the language of Arabic and, and the, and my, my specialty was medicine. The other specialties on the team are weapons and engineering and communications that you can embark on early in your career.

Will Bachman 03:15

I didn’t know that. And then like so how long is the medical training? I’m curious.

Michael Wise 03:20

Yeah, it’s a year long. It’s a little over a year long. And the first half is mostly trauma oriented. The second half is mostly clinical oriented and it culminates the first half culminates with a rotation shadowing er doctors and paramedics and then the second portion culminates with you serving as a practitioner at a either a military clinic somewhere you know basically shadowing the primary care doctor or in Indian hospital Native American Indian hospital or or some other other facilities where where we have agreements with with the canteen there.

Will Bachman 03:58

Wow. Tell me about some of your experiences as as a greenbrae about some of the while you were while you’re deployed

Michael Wise 04:10

Oh happy to Yeah, the I so I learned early that medicine was not my forte I was okay at it but it didn’t really sing to me. Part of the reason why I got out with the business school and transitioned what most excited me Will was was working in different cultures and building relationships and and and you know, trying to make things work more efficiently and effectively and and kind of doing the the problem solving and so I as soon as I could I delegated a lot of my medical responsibilities to a junior medic on the team and then I spent a lot as much time as I could on the on the more leadership aspects or in the district strategy and operations aspect of it and so but yeah, the experiences I you know, you show up. And you interface with your your team, you’re, in my case, it was Afghanistan. So my Afghan counterparts, drink a lot of tea, build relationships, plan training, plan operations, go execute training, go execute operations, and kind of rinse and repeat. I was fortunate enough that I, for two straight deployments, I got to work with the same people. So when I showed up on the ground, in 2011, I went to the same base, I shook hands with the same Afghan Colonel and all the same Afghan officers and I knew who I was working with, and they knew my name, and I knew there was and there was a bit of a reunion there, it was nice. And the report was already built in. And so that was the other generally experience.

Will Bachman 05:44

How did that experience translate to you? And McKinsey?

Michael Wise 05:51

Yeah, I mean, I’d like to think that if I, if I can make make friends and interact and find rapport with someone from another culture that speaks another language, that I could, I could do that in almost any clients setting or and even internally with, with teams. And so I can remember my first study you know, I, I think I was at one of my first studies, I was at an airline and I, I don’t have a lot of aviation experience or, or expertise there. And I walked up into the cockpit and asked, asked one of the one of the this was, you know, maintenance project and I asked one of the texts, you know, what, what do you kind of working on and he kind of snarled at me, because because, you know, not many folks want people looking over their shoulder when they’re, they’re just trying to do their job and, and I was able to kind of use some of the skills that I learned, you know, in the Green Berets to kind of just build some rapport ask them what what was kind of going on with him, what mattered to him, what he thought about me being there, and eventually, eventually, was able to get some good information and build some rapport and the lead to kind of some, some continual continual relating there. And so I think, the ability to play well with others, the ability to have a, try to keep a higher perspective, those are all kinds of things that lent well to, from from special forces into into consulting.

Will Bachman 07:11

Yeah. And now you’ve transitioned to coaching Tell me about your current practice.

Michael Wise 07:20

Well, Sherry, I mean, the path to get here, well was was pretty Rocky. I, I was really, I think I was good at managing teams and good at managing clients and having relationships there, but I didn’t I didn’t have a terribly good relationship with with myself. And so my last, my last deployment to Afghanistan in 2016, I actually left McKinsey to go to Afghanistan and then I returned to McKinsey afterwards I suffered from some some real mental health challenges PTSD and anxiety and depression and and I had to take some time away and and I you know, it was pretty complex for me I had to kind of throw a lot of things at its mind to find some relief and and over the course of that I you know, I’d like to think I have this military leadership skill sets and I have this this McKinsey kind of business skill sets and then I developed a bit of a healing or or you know practitioner skill sets as through my own healing journey right and so so I as a coach I like to think that I can bring to bear all those assets both from a you know, I’m not I’m not by any means a therapist but I I’m good at listening and naming what what people are showing up with and holding space for for whatever whatever folks are bringing to the table whether that’s what they want to be more effective in their job or they want to be a better husband or father or whatever that may be I my life’s experience and my own pain and my own journey my own struggles I think in form as well that I can I can at least hold I certainly don’t have the answers but we can we can find space and I can create space for folks to explore it together so

Will Bachman 08:57

can you tell us a bit more about your own healing journey and some of the techniques or tools that you found helpful to you personally?

Michael Wise 09:09

Sure, so I you know, I found myself over time using to avoid feeling my feelings I would do things that that you know, whether that was substances or behaviors that didn’t serve me very well and so I identify with, you know, addiction and, and so, one of the things that was profound for me was the 12 steps 12 step fellowship, and working the steps had the accountability there having community there, you know, having a bit of a spiritual spiritual transformation there was powerful body oriented practices so I’m a big fan of cold water immersion and the work of you know, around Somatic Experiencing and Dr. Peter Levine and, you know, believing that trauma is stored in the body If we sit still long enough and breathe, we can actually kind of feel it and process it through. And so that was that was big for me as well. And then, you know, something that’s becoming more and more mainstream and exciting, and something that’s been profound for me has been, has been psychedelics, the use of psychedelics in a, in a clinical setting, you know, under the care of a therapist, and then also as, as I’ve progressed to do it in a group settings where, you know, we’ve set set intentions and, and, and really sink into an experience. And so it’s, it’s, those are some of the things that have been most most profound for me on my journey.

Will Bachman 10:35

Tell me about the psychedelics.

Michael Wise 10:38

Sure, so I’ve, I’d say my first, my first experience was a little over a year ago at this point. And I had a tremendous therapist that helped facilitate a journey for me, and it was, I believe the first one was was using was using MDMA. And, I, it’s hard to explain for those that haven’t embarked on it, but it was, it was one of the most profound experiences of my life. And so it was, the vision I can offer is that I, I walked through, you know, the sitting on the couch, and my therapist helped, you know, kind of get me into a space and the medicine kind of goes where it wants to go. And in that particular session, it was my military trauma, which wanted to wanted to come kind of come and emerge. And so I walked through a dark Canyon, you know, while sitting on that couch and had visions of, of old memories and painful experiences. And, and what she offered me was the idea that there was a younger version of myself, and it was the current version of myself, and we were walking through that Canyon together towards towards the end, and, and my body had really intense reactions to reliving some of those things. And I shook, and I cried, and I had, I had really powerful emotional reactions. And when I was done, I, you know, after a few hours, the medicine wore off, and I was exhausted. And I felt, gosh, 10 1520 pounds lighter. Like I didn’t know that I was carrying around all this, all this trauma, all this grief, all this pain, and just the ability to put that down. It was it was incredible. And so that was my first one. My second one was similar in nature, and it dealt with a lot of childhood kind of things. And some messages that I got growing up that didn’t serve me very well, what and weren’t necessarily nurturing to me. And so it was, um, yeah, for those that haven’t, haven’t done it, I think everyone I talked to the folks that I that I’m able to, to help help lead down that path and, and try those things I inevitably hear it was one of the most profound and impactful and insightful experiences that are alive. And so that’s, that was certainly true for me.

Will Bachman 12:51

So is that something that then that you you’ve experienced, primarily working, you know, like, in a clinical setting with a therapist, or, you know, I know that there’s, you know, the Michael Pollan book around micro dosing, and so forth? What’s your, what’s your kind of current practice around that?

Michael Wise 13:06

Yeah, I am. I’ve done Let me think probably two or three of the individual journeys with a therapist, and then I also went and did some communal kind of things. And so there was a group of veterans that did I Alaska, together with a person who, who, you know, exclusively has experience with that medicine I lost goes south american, I believe it’s derived from a roots. And it’s, they make a little tea out of it. And, and so are you doing that in a group setting, you know, with appropriate intentions and safeguards in place is profound and intimacy building and healing and, and so a group of us veterans all kind of shook out and, and experienced, you know, some healing together on an Iosco journey. And there’s another, there’s another kind of derivative of that, or similar version called Yahoo, which I did in when I was I spent some time in Mexico and, and had an experience there. And it was it was also and they’re all very interesting, they’re all very novel. They have their own flavor they have they’re not, I shouldn’t be like, not my taste, but they have each experience has its own kind of personality. And it’s interesting, like there’s, I believe these things have a spirit to them. And so they kind of guide you where you need to go at any given time. And it’s, it’s, it’s profound, and, and it’s been very beneficial to me.

Will Bachman 14:30

In what way how has these experiences can change your Outlook or your goals or your you know, kind of your day to day or your kind of beliefs about the world? How has it impacted you beyond the event itself?

Michael Wise 14:47

Yeah, good question. There’s a try to remember the name of the book. I think it’s playing with fire that talks about non ordinary states of consciousness and how How folks are using them to achieve peak performance. And I think that the anecdote that I remember from it was like you can, you can take a pill or go on a psychedelic experience and do this in a day, you can do some adventures, kind of sports and experience, you know, likeness in a way and do that over the course of a month, or you can do talk therapy and do it in six months or longer, right, like, there, there are multiple ways to kind of push on this thing and to help grow and evolve. And for me, what these experiences have done is, my compass feels a lot more attuned to what I feel like my purpose is, because I’m not carrying around old messages. And so this, this, these, these experiences help shine light in dark corners, where I didn’t, I didn’t know to look and kind of revealed some stories that I had been telling myself, sometimes consciously, sometimes consciously, or subconsciously, and just revealed them to not be true. And so unburdened from that, I guess I feel more aligned, I feel more centered, and more, more focused on what I’m actually here to do, and less and less focus on what other people think about it, and how much money I’m going to make doing it or or any other means that external validation that I used to, I used to seek after a lot.

Will Bachman 16:20

Yeah, no, can you this is a little personal, but can you give me an example of one of the stories that you used to tell yourself that, that you’ve been able to kind of unmask as not not particularly helpful story where you’ve been able to change the narrative to something else?

Michael Wise 16:40

Sure. Yeah. I mean, so I think the one that comes to mind the most was it if you, if you really knew me, you wouldn’t love me. Because from an early age, I think I, I played a bit of a role of what I thought folks would would, would like to see, you know, whether that’s getting good grades, or or, you know, being funny, or just showing up in a certain way. And, and so when I put on that mask, so to speak, I guess underneath I didn’t, I didn’t feel particularly lovable, or likeable. And so what, in my career that like I, you know, I put that mask on, and I succeeded, but I felt more and more out of alignment over time. And so when I, you know, in these therapeutic sessions, and in all the work that I’ve done, I realized one of these, one of these core beliefs was that if you, if you really knew me, that you wouldn’t like me, you wouldn’t accept me, you would love me. And so to have that real to be able to share, one that I feel that way, too, that that some of the things that I was so ashamed of, or felt loved, and no one would understand. And to still be held in love and compassion. It just, it really, it really took the weight off, it really took. It took a lot of that darkness away. And so and for me, one of the main vessels was was these experiences to reveal, oh, that’s just not true. Like, I’ve got plenty of evidence otherwise, that I, I’m worthy, I’m lovable just as I am, I’m okay. I’m not perfect, right. And that’s, and that’s, and it’s okay to not be perfect. And so that was that’s probably, that’s probably the biggest message that I I’m still in the process of putting down but I’ve done a lot of a lot of work. And it’s been important for me.

Will Bachman 18:27

Thank you for sharing that. You mentioned that it’s, throughout this process, you’ve also helped discover your purpose. Tell me how you articulate that to yourself now.

Michael Wise 18:39

Yeah, I mean, I, I’d love to help leaders. And, and folks that, that, maybe walk and talk the way that I used to live more soulfully. And to, to, to put down whatever burdens they’re carrying to reveal, identify and put down whatever burden they’re carrying, and start cultivating, continuing to cultivate their innate gifts, the things that they’re really called to do. And so, in my work with clients, I think we have a lot of fun naming, naming some of these old messages, meditating our way through it, and then getting excited and thinking about like, what do we want life to look like? Right? Like what what would we like to be able to believe and what what would have to happen between now and then to kind of get there and so it’s, it’s, it’s been such a, you know, and to be to be a bit selfish, it really helps me to when I when I help other people on their healing journey or their growth journey. I feel like I am I’m healing a little bit more myself every time and that connection that I feel with clients. It It means a lot to me, it warms, you know, really makes me feel good about the work that I’m doing and makes me feel good about the impact that I’m having. And it’s it’s Yeah, it’s but it hasn’t felt like work in a year. I’ve been in practice I haven’t been many, many times where it really felt like work, it felt more like a purpose more like a calling, it’s a heck of a lot of fun.

Will Bachman 20:08

That’s a great place to be in as an entrepreneur, when you’re doing something that doesn’t feel like work, it’s, you’re here, it’s, it’s hard for someone to compete with someone else who doesn’t feel like they’re working. And tell us a little bit about your practice now. So what are the typical profile of the clients that you serve?

Michael Wise 20:31

Yeah, sure. So I do end up serving a lot of military vets in in business roles now, some transitioning military that’s, and then a lot of burns out overworked consultants, and there’s plenty of us out there. And so folks that have, you know, used to enjoy the work in in certain proportions. And as, as success often does, your plate gets overloaded, and you start to lose sight of things. And so the burnt out consultant crowd is right in my wheelhouse. And then any leader, you know, I have a number of kind of C level, executive clients that they’re just trying to live more fully, right, like they folks that have achieved whatever success they thought was going to make them happy. And they’re looking for something else to figure out like, what is what’s it actually going to be because I thought, I thought a million dollars or I thought a title or I thought something else would would, you know, some people consciously think this, some people subconsciously think it But folks that that, that when they accomplished X, Y and Z that they would they would be satisfied and they get there and they’re not those those folks are right in my wheelhouse as well.

Will Bachman 21:40

What’s your approach to coaching? When you start working with someone? Do you have kind of the, you know, the 10 blocks that you want to walk through in some kind of programmatic way? Is it very ad hoc, where you just ask the person, okay, what do you want to work on? And then you kind of, sort of make it up as you go, or improvise, if you will? Or what’s, how’s your approach? structured?

Michael Wise 22:10

Sure. So I mean, it’s very, it’s very individualized, no two clients are the same. But I think some of the hallmarks of working with me is our mindfulness. If folks aren’t, you know, whether that’s prayer, or meditation, or some version of that, like I invite folks into, into some version of that, I think it’s great source of insight. And then a lot of, you know, values articulation, personal mission statements, for folks that do have existing trauma, like we find that we can meditate or kind of do versions of talk therapy to get I’m not a therapist, but you know, talk about those previous experiences and shine some light there and process those through. And so yeah, there’s, you know, in an hour or an hour and a half with me, you know, we will draw some insights, but the real work comes from what the client is feeling compelled to do in the week, or the two weeks following until our next session, right. And so sometimes that’s writing a letter to yourself, sometimes that’s creating a vision board sometimes that’s, that’s, hey, I want to go and have a conversation with somebody that I’ve been putting off or, you know, I want to go to the gym, and I want to do these things, a couple things and, and I provided you know, it’s helpful to them, I can provide some accountability there, some connection there to, because because, you know, when you’re, it helps, it helps to have somebody in your corner that’s, that knows where you want to go and can help you uphold that vision. Because we all get busy. We all have overflowing plates. And so having having someone that’s that’s advocating for you, I think is a real asset folks.

Will Bachman 23:47

Can we submit examples? Or you can either expound on the ones you listed? Or maybe or give some other ones? Of what are some of the exercises that you will suggest to your clients?

Michael Wise 23:59

Probably the most common question that clients will hear me ask them is, where do you what do you feeling? And where do you feel that in your body and to to get to get to be able to train ourselves to identify emotions and identify sensations associated with emotions? Because we’ve, what I find in the western kind of business mindset is we go on autopilot a lot, and we and we, we get out of alignment with, you know, checking in with ourselves, how are we feeling? How, like, what is our innate sense telling us to do like we’ve got tremendous tools that have evolved, evolved over 1000s of millions of years to to give us these things and we frequently turn away from them to go on autopilot and push hard to the next goal. And so I think the inviting to get back in touch with those things. Right. And that’s, that’s, yeah, and I can remember my own journey. It can be quite frustrating. say, Oh, I know what I’m feeling. I haven’t actually asked myself this question. But but it’s a it’s a common, it’s a common thing that I’ll work with in my class with my clients to, to help them get more in touch with what, whatever it is most present for them and to invite invite some of that out. Because there’s, there’s often other feelings attached that are sometimes more deeply, deeply lodged. And so it can take the form of a meditation as well, right? where it’s like, Okay, if you feel if you feel pain in your chest, if you close your eyes and breathe into it a little bit like, does it move does it shift, if you had to describe it does have a color does it have a shape does have a texture. And that might sound a little kind of woowoo or strange to folks that haven’t done it. But it’s, if you if you indulge in it, I find that folks have an innate wisdom and an an eye and an insight to identify which levers to pull and which roads to go down and which doors that open to for their own healing. And so I’d like to think that I help invite some of some of the Folkestone skills to come to light.

Will Bachman 26:03

You talked about helping your clients discover their purpose and their values and so forth. What are some of the exercises of the interactions that you have to work on those sorts of issues?

Michael Wise 26:19

Yeah, I think, um, there’s, there’s, you know, that vision board that values articulation. What’s the vision board? I’m

Will Bachman 26:27

sorry, yeah, sure,

Michael Wise 26:28

let me tell you. So I the, I like to invite folks to select five to 10 images that represent how they would like to experience life. And so that can be you know, I had a client that put Matthew McConaughey on his vision board, and it was because it was the title of it, or the, the cover of his book, green lights. And that was because he just aspired to have what he described as like, you know, just his cool mentality, his his, his calm demeanor is he is he’s just, you know, he judged that, you know, not knowing Mr. McConaughey. But he judged that he had like an ease of being right. And that was something that he was aspiring to. For some folks, that’s the house they want to live in, or the car they want to drive or the you know, the relationship they want to have. And, and the images don’t actually have to make sense on the outside, but they can. But if it makes sense, in the clients mind, that’s what’s most important, it’s powerful for the client, that’s what’s most important. So selecting five to 10 images, and then putting that up in your home. You know, blowing it up and having it someplace where you actually commune with it, I believe that if we do that, and we spend a little bit of time each day thinking about that, and spending time with it and meditating on it, that we actually start to invite in those things. And we actually start to start walking towards those things and so it can be a powerful exercise for folks. And then values articulation, I, you know, affirmations for me are so simple and so difficult for some folks to do, but just having you know, the things that you’re trying to cultivate it that’s you know, worthiness or or you know, effectiveness or, you know, whatever it is you can you can articulate a few statements, they just say, you know, I am x i am unlovable, I am worthy, I am I am a good leader, I am, I am a passionate leader, and just saying those things out loud and staring in the mirror, you know, I recommend a lot of folks like, paste up some affirmations and put them on the, you know, in your bathroom mirror, when you wake up in the morning, say them out loud. And just that exercise has been profound for a number of my clients. It’s very simple. It’s hard to do, because it seems a bit silly, but but it really, for a number of folks. And for me personally, it moves the needle.

Will Bachman 28:42

What are some of the other images that people have put on their vision board that that kind of have stuck with you.

Michael Wise 28:50

A lot of them are nature based activity based. You know, there, I’ve seen a lot of mountains, I’ve seen pictures of their children. I’ve seen you know, an outdoor gym, I have an outdoor gym in mind, because I love the idea of working out outside. Some folks love bicycling, I want to bike bike more, or biking in the mountains in Europe. And so they’ll, they’ll have a picture of a path there. And then a lot of spirituality, right and so some folks have, you know, a person meditating on a hilltop or they may have a picture of, you know, their holy book or, or, or, you know, someone that seems to walk into a faith that they would like to they would aspire to do. And so it really covers the whole gamut. Some of the things are material, and that’s okay. And some of the things are spiritual, and some of the things are physical, you know, and it really just depends on what the client is kind of leaning into. And it’s fun, it’s fun to revisit, after six months when you’re like, oh, I’ve actually I got this and I can remember my own story like I made one about a year ago and there was a house in the mountains and some animals and and and this year, I moved The Montana and I got a I got a cabin in the mountains and it’s like oh, I gotta I gotta revisit my vision board I already have some of these things like where do I what what else do I what I’d like to experience in life so

Will Bachman 30:10

yeah, did the vision board you told me before we start recording that you were out cutting wood

Michael Wise 30:15

frame my first chainsaw

Will Bachman 30:19

I did the vision board include you know, driving with the pickup out to the national forest to get the wood for the fireplace.

Michael Wise 30:28

It did have it did have a pickup truck, because I lived in you know, I lived in New York and I lived in LA and for a while I didn’t have a vehicle and then you know living in LA wanted to have a hybrid they’ve gotten great mileage and but I lived in North Carolina too. And everybody in the army, especially in Special Forces, almost everybody has a pickup truck. And that was true for me. And so I’ve been yearning for a pickup truck. And I finally actually this week I finally bought my, my pickup truck. And so yeah, it things things, things have come to come to fruition for after putting them on a vision board.

Will Bachman 31:00

It’s interesting, the house is also important to think about the things that you know, had been on our, you know, truly physical or just even, you’re gonna have a mental vision board in the past that we’ve achieved and we’re often so often thinking about moving forward and what’s the next thing but it’s also important to celebrate and you know, savor a bit the fact that we have accomplished some of the things that we dreamed about 510 or even one year ago

Michael Wise 31:29

100% 100% and that’s that’s the other thing I have gratitude lists it’s something I picked up in the 12 step programs that you know I’ve offered to a few clients and I think they get a lot out of right and so because wherever you’re at in life right if you can, if you can cultivate gratitude if you can cultivate a sense of gratitude for what you have even for the experience even if it’s not pleasant right knowing that it teaching you something it’s not be blind to the pain or the discomfort but the but an attitude of gratitude of cultivation of gratitude is something that is that really helps folks along all the way it makes things just a little bit easier and so yeah, let’s let’s celebrate Let’s be grateful for for getting some of these things on the vision board and not being in such a rush to plug in five new versions of it right because that’s a that That in itself can be a bit of the same train that I’m trying to invite folks off of.

Will Bachman 32:23

So Michael, if folks wanted to follow up with you to learn more about your practice or potentially even discuss you know, getting some help from you. Where would you point them online? What’s the best way to follow up? Yeah,

Michael Wise 32:37

so I’m pretty accessible via LinkedIn Michael Weiss, and then my coaching company is called wisdom coaching and that’s w SDM coaching and you can find me at wisdom coaching com that’s www dot w SDM coaching comm you can get on my calendar there. And and yeah, I’d love to. I’ve got I’ve got time for anybody that wants to, you know, have a get to know you chat and talk about the journey and see if see if we can make make some make some magic together.

Will Bachman 33:09

Michael, thank you. We’ll include those links in the show notes. Thank you so much for joining today.

Michael Wise 33:14

Thank you Well, and I just want to say what the community that you build with Umbrex I enjoy getting the emails and just I think it’s a great thing that you’ve created and it’s quite inspiring. So thanks thanks for all you do for for folks like us as well.

Will Bachman 33:27

Thank you very much for those kind words.

Michael Wise 33:30

Alright, so be well