Episode: 414 |
Tineke Keesmaat:
Hybrid Workplaces:



Tineke Keesmaat

Hybrid Workplaces

Show Notes


Tineke Keesmaat has over 15 years of consulting experience with McKinsey & Company, Accenture and as the founder, and CEO of TILTCO Inc. She has an MBA from the Richard Ivey School of Business at Western University with a subspecialty in Entrepreneurship and a B.A with Honours in Psychology from Queen’s University. In this episode, she talks about the hybrid business playbook her company has published. 

Key points include:

  • 01:11: The process of developing the playbook
  • 11:49: Developing a podcast series 
  • 17:30: The impact of the podcast
  • 26:27: How companies can build a hybrid business

You can find out more about the playbook and Tineke’s business at www.tiltco.ca.


One weekly email with bonus materials and summaries of each new episode:

Will Bachman 00:00
Hello, and welcome to Unleashed the show that explores how to thrive as an independent professional. I’m your host Will Bachman and I am so excited to be back with Tineke Keesmaatt, who was last year on episode 224 Tineke. Welcome back.

Tineke Keesmaat 00:20
Thanks. So I’m super excited to be back here with you today.

Will Bachman 00:24
So Tineke, I’m really amazed and just blown away by this report that your firm has put together, I should say, call it a playbook succeeding in a hybrid world, which listeners you can find at tilt co.ca, we’ll include a link in the show notes where you can download this playbook we’re going to be talking about. So this is I want to do two things in the show Tina, I was hoping we could first talk through the process you went through to create this playbook, which I thought was really an interesting way of going about it. And then we can talk throughout some of the actual content of what you came up with. So tell us maybe walk us through the process, maybe even what was the idea behind it?

Tineke Keesmaat 01:11
For sure. So it actually started in late December, where I had some clients asked me about Haiti to go, what will the world look like post pandemic, I hear this thing about hybrid. And to be honest, I went I googled, because I wanted to offer them a perspective. And at the time, there was literally nothing about what hybrid organizations meant. So the first part of the process was, hey, my clients are asking something, I don’t actually have a solid answer for them. What do I do? The second part was as an independent, I had started to get a bit bored, for lack of better word about spending all my time by myself, and was really craving the thought leadership and the camaraderie of other people. And secondly, I was wanting to be more creative around how I create it. Thought Leadership, how would I create things with higher impact? How would I learn more through the process? How would I come with a smarter point of view for my clients. And so those two things combined combined, were the start of the process, first, a real client need and then second, a passion and a curiosity on my end. So from that I kind of said, Hey, this seems like a great opportunity to play. And so the process was quite simple. First Umbrex and yourself, were a great partner to this because I needed to answer the question, How can I find some smart people to have a good conversation on to inform the perspective I want to bring? And so I canvassed Umbrex, because I want it consultants who have experienced this or who are talking about this topic with their clients. I also thought about who are some of the business leaders that I work with day to day who might be either answering this question, or who may already be experiencing hybrid in their environments. And then I looked through some of the academics or the experts that I know in this area. And so that was step one, which was who are the people that I can bring together to share or discuss or to add ideate on this topic of hybrid. So step two, we convened in a series of roundtables. So we had three roundtables, each of which had a finer point to it, but all that were linked by this topic of hybrid. So each each roundtable discussion was about two hours. Everybody received before the session, the questions, the agenda, and some thought pieces that I had come across on the topic to spark their thinking or curiosity. And then we just got on the phone and had a conversation. So it was great. There was people from who’d never met before, who probably would never come across each other because they were literally from around the globe. And we just went through a series of questions. So what does hybrid mean to you? How should leaders communicate in hybrid? Do you really think this hybrid thing is going to actually work? And so we just had a series of free flowing conversations with some really smart people to explore this topic. The third piece was then to take all of that incredible insights and convert it into something that was going to be meaningful. And so every roundtable conversation got converted into a couple of assets. The first was a very short point of view that came out of that specific round table. So our first round table, for example, was how should leaders be communicating in a hybrid environment. So post that session, we created a very short LinkedIn article. And then we made that available to my network but also offered it up to all participants so that they could share and post and take ownership as well for their contributions in this. The second asset was a podcast so we had fun taking six or seven participants and stringing together a podcast but all Live their various perspectives, and then again making that available to our various networks. And then the third piece was this hybrid playbook, where after our three roundtables were completed, we augmented those with some additional podcasts for people who may not have participated in this roundtable forum, but also with just a ton of reading and podcasts listening to stretch or add to the content that the roundtable participants had provided. And so that’s what we’ve recently published, which is this this playbook.

Will Bachman 05:33
Yeah. Now, this, this playbook, listeners, you really need to download this and check it out. Because it’s not only, I mean, very useful, content, and but I got to say, the design of this is so gorgeous, and amazing. I just want to like caress this document and decide, like, this is just so beautiful. This thing. So tell me a little bit about the design process. Because I mean, really, of this is in like the top 1% of independent consultants and boutique firms I know of in terms of sophistication of design. Tell me a little bit about the design process that went into this.

Tineke Keesmaat 06:16
Thanks. Well, so first of all, design matters attend to me, I believe that if we are going to ask people to engage in our material, we need to make it easy that for them to understand what it is that we’re talking about, and pleasurable for them. So with so much information, hidden people, you I believe you need to have your material standout not just for the quality of the content, but I do design helps to captivate people’s attention. So first and foremost, it’s just something that I’ve value and a place a lot of value on. So the design was actually quite fun. We started with this idea of luck, we want something that a leader could quickly pick up and have things jump off the page. So we didn’t want it to be an article, we didn’t want it to be, you know, 20 pages of detailed information for them to skate through. So we knew that we wanted it to be bite sized pieces of information that they could have at a glance. So that pretty much formed the premise of what we needed to create. We then worked with our designer, and talk about what did that mean from a layout perspective? So what was the right proportion of whitespace? You know, how did we want the telco brand to show through but not be 100% telco branded, knowing that we had lots of people that contributed to it, right? So how did you make it telco but also acknowledged that other people had participate it? How did you get the right blend of showing that we had read information outside some McKinsey quotes, BCG quotes, etc. While still creating space, that telcos perspective was going to come loud and through so that was through a lot of ideation with our diviner. And, and then she mocked up a couple of pages, we went back and forth, you know, did we like it or not like it changed it. And then to her credit, she is a wonderful designer, and her first path was beautiful. And that was because she had really listened to our intention, we’d given her one or two examples to play off of, and then from there, we could just refine together to really have it be something that we would be proud of both the designer is proud of it. And we, myself, I’m very proud of it. And I know that many of our participants who contributed also have commented that they felt well represented because the design is of an amazing quality.

Will Bachman 08:46
Yeah, I mean, it’s really, really nice. You have this kind of color scheme, that, that there’s three main sections I’ll just mention of this document. It’s, let’s see, reimagine what’s possible, rebuild with a tenant reset your team. And they did a nice job of having this color scheme that ties each one together. So it’s clearly separating the document in three sections, and then is your designer is is your designer on years staff full time as a independent professional, that user freelancer,

Tineke Keesmaat 09:19
it’s a it’s also an independent, and a secret that I will share is that our first designer, the one that I use and love, I he actually was experiencing some personal challenges. So we were kind of through the process. We were already behind. And then I asked a person that I deeply respect to values design for replacement. So this was the first product that I had actually done with this designer. So I was equally impressed by how quickly she converted our ideas to this quality. And, and to be honest, I think setting those guardrails out about what we wanted, she was able to convert the first version of this within two days. Wow. Amazing. So for people who are curious, I think just having that intention about what you want, and then working with a designer to be very, very clear about what you want. And her results were amazing. And we were very quick at the turn.

Will Bachman 10:13
Yeah. So if you haven’t yet checked out the document, this is not like a PowerPoint. With the standard tiles on top. There’s lots of different design elements. But it all really ties together. You have like, some kind of speedometer type illustrations, there’s sidebars, with quotes and photos of people just all tied together. Just super beautiful.

Tineke Keesmaat 10:37
Thank you. There’s another piece that people can check out in be where we had podcast either from individuals or with an the roundtable, you can actually click on the icons, and it will actually carry you directly through to the podcast itself. Likewise, where we’ve promoted different technologies, if you click on those icons, they’re all hyperlinked. So again, that’s one of my learnings is that we probably could have done a better job explaining some of the functionality within the document. But we really wanted to make it easy for people who were curious to say, Hey, I saw this amazing quote from Jackie, she was on telcos leader lab, let me actually just go to that podcast because it’s really cool what she said here. So again, there’s many things I would do differently next time around. But I loved the fact that the document was at a base level interactive. And so we can work from that in the next versions, too. You can make it better.

Will Bachman 11:32
Now, tell me about this podcast. So is this a kind of a one off podcast series? Or just tell us a little bit about? Is that purchase of an ongoing podcast that your firm has where you just made some episodes? or How did you do this podcast? Yeah,

Tineke Keesmaat 11:49
so we were about to call it 14 months into our podcast series, I think we’re on nowhere near the volume that you’ve been able to create, I think we’re on between 25 and 35 episodes. And our premise is we want to talk to leaders or experts who can provide practical insights that will help leaders be more effective in achieving their goals. And so our guests have been academics, we talked to Elspeth Johnson from MIT, and she provided this amazing research that she’s been doing on how leaders can drive change to leaders, so people that are actually leading companies day to day and just kind of what are the insights that they have to offer about how they’ve driven success? So each episode, we tend to stay between the under 20 minute mark. So the idea in the pre pandemic world was something that people could tune into, as they were on their commute. And, and yeah, their brief conversations, they are fantastic, like the people are so generous with their time and their insights. So it’s been an amazing opportunity for me just to build my network, learn from some incredible people. And, and again, similar to what I said at the beginning of this just feel a little less isolated as an independent consulting consultant. So they’ve been a great tool, they’ve been more work than I had anticipated up front, as you might be able to, to attest to. So we’re working on ways to streamline the process to make it more effective. Because they are super valuable for a couple of purposes for us, but they can be quite a bit of work. If you’re not mindful of that.

Will Bachman 13:39
Yeah, they can be. I’d also say that they don’t have to be

Tineke Keesmaat 13:43
learning painfully, we’re learning what would have been your biggest insights on that?

Will Bachman 13:47
Well, I mean, it depends on your aspirations of how much editing you want to do, and so forth. So for this show, right. Now, listeners, you know, we’ve gone to a mostly daily format, as you know, and the what helped make that transition as a member, I used to be doing basically everything, myself, except for the editing piece. So for the first 150 episodes of the show, 200 or 200 plus episodes, had Dave Nelson, my audio editor was editing them, but then when when the pandemic hit, I wanted to start going more frequently. So I started rather than having a separate intro, and then little music and then the show and then putting on the outro. I said, You know what, I’m just gonna like, say the intro, and just roll right into the thing and then just do the clothes and forget about all that. So that’s made it a lot easier. So I was editing them myself for a long time. But then that was still taking a lot of my time to, you know, to put merge the two tracks together, do the little bit of sound editing that we do, to upload the episode to write the show notes. To do the transcript. So now we have a member of our team Henrietta who’s helping me with that piece. So I, you know, schedule the interview, I show up for the video, I conduct the discussion. But then we have a team member who’s helping to do all those other pieces to make the transcript, right, the show notes uploaded to lips and do all that stuff.

Tineke Keesmaat 15:20
I think it’s so important, I think as an independent, you can sometimes get caught in this, I have to do it myself. But there is an amazing set of resources out there. So the person who did our playbook, amazing, and she did it way better than if I tried to do it myself. We also have a sound editor, who was fantastic. And if you get into the right mode, like his turnaround time is incredible. And I have a communications person. And it’s actually amazing because they know their trades, their skills so well that what they can produce is so much better than what I can produce. And it actually allows you to connect with different people and to learn as well. So I’m with you like, again, it’s still not flawless, but the podcast are getting easier. I think for me, I don’t know, if you found this as well, well, I had to step back and get really clear about what was I trying to accomplish with my podcast? You know, I think at the beginning, you think you’re gonna get millions of listeners and you know, it, you know, and you kind of have to compete with, you know, the NPR, how I dealt this, etc, etc. And you realize it’s a tough, tough slog. And, you know, again, even when I started a year ago, there wasn’t actually that much podcasting. Now, everybody is doing a podcast. And so I had to really be clear about what I wanted from my leader lab podcast, and then work to achieve those objectives. And so what I need for my leader lab is very different than what you want with your Unleashed. But having gone through that reflection, I think that our podcasts are 10 times better, they’re 10 times more easy to produce, and they are 10 times more impactful for what I’m trying to serve.

Will Bachman 17:00
Yeah, that’s really important to be clear in your objectives of if you’re creating any kind of content, what are you really trying to achieve? Trying to get big enough, you can monetize the audience and sell advertising, or you’re trying to build relationship with the guest, and you don’t care how many people listen. Let’s talk about the episode The I’m curious to hear. I mean, this is such an amazing playbook you put together? What has been the impact so far? So as it generated conversations for your firm? curious to hear about that?

Tineke Keesmaat 17:30
Yeah, so we released it, in its full form only a couple of days ago. So it’s still to be determined. But what I will say is the process of having the round tables, releasing the different episodes of the podcast, have sparked interest. So we’ve had at least one client engagement that has fallen from this actual effort, which I know it’s only one but often you do thought leadership and nothing sparks from it. So you know, to me, that’s a big, big win. And what I would say from the podcast from the playbook that’s been published only in the last couple of days, I’ve had a ton of people reaching out just saying, Hey, this is amazing. I’ve actually used this section, or Hey, can we have you? You know, I think you should be getting this out to a wider audience, can we talk to figure out how we get more of this out? So I would say compared to other articles that I’ve written or even podcast, the response has been so encouraging, and so wonderful. And so now the trick is to figure out, how do you how do you get it out to more people? How do you also hear from people about what’s working and not working? Because, you know, I think that hybrid is so new that there probably will be a playbook version 2.0 as leaders play an experiment and learn more so. Yeah, so So far, we’ve had at least one concrete business opportunity. But more importantly, it sparked and a lot of amazing conversations and interest and rekindled relationships, etc. So while a lot of work, I am very hopeful that the impact, the business impact, I think we’ll be there but also from a personal perspective. I’ve met so many people through the process. So I’ve had from our roundtable participants, I’ve had several follow up conversations. I helped to connect people that participated, who wanted to spend more time with each other. And so I think those relationships I’ve built through the process have also been hugely helpful at a personal level.

Will Bachman 19:37
Well, to your point, I think that you hit the David A. Fields trifecta of looking for problems to work on, which is that this is pervasive, right? Like every company is facing this question. It’s urgent. I mean, they need to face it in the next month or two. How in the world are we going to go back to a hybrid situation? And it’s expensive if not solved, right. So company need to figure out what they’re doing about remote work hybrid? How do people get back to the office? Do you require people to make it optional? Is it like Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, like, What? What do you do? So you really hit it, you know, with the trifecta. And just the fact that you’re talking about, even if people don’t get you a project for this, it gives you sort of the right to reach out to people and say, here, I made this, and maybe this would be helpful to you, and get, you know, become top of mind again. So I would expect that even if you don’t get like hi bread, you know, solve our hybrid problems, that this will result in just being Top of Mind and district flow.

Tineke Keesmaat 20:41
That’s right. And I think, again, the the fact that the process had so many touch points in it. It’s interesting. Now when I reach out to somebody, they’ll they their first comment will often be, hey, I’ve really been watching what you’ve been putting out. And because of the frequency, you are top of mind, and you know, we don’t necessarily go down the path of like, let’s talk about that topic. But it is clear that it’s catching people’s interest. And I’m very appreciative when people say, Hey, that was actually helpful when you pop you publish X, Y, or Z. So it all takes time. And I am still learning as we go. But it’s, it’s fun to experiment and, and see what happens.

Will Bachman 21:23
Yeah. So I just, I really, really love this idea of what you decide to do, which was not just think about yourself, you know, I don’t have my own brain come up with this. But bringing together a group of other consultants, and having these roundtables, what would your advice be having gone through at once now, your lessons learned? So for listener of this show, who wants to say, I want to do that on, you know, some other topic? I want to bring together a round table, and then just out of that, be able to produce some content? What are some, either some lessons of this really worked? Well, you should definitely do this, like, record it and make a transcript? And, or some things that you would do differently next time?

Tineke Keesmaat 22:06
Yeah, great question. I think, number one, being very clear with the expectations from participants. So how much time will they have to give during the session? What do you require them post session? So we had some rules of engagement, right, which is, hey, if we send you stuff back, that we’ve produced, you know, ideally, you will have gotten back to us within 24 hours so that it didn’t hold up your whole process. And people were fantastic, right? They just wanted to know, what were the conditions? What were the requirements of being involved? I was probably more shy about setting those up front, but people were very keen to understand and to contribute. So that would be number one. It’s just being very honest with what the expectations are, too. I think a surprise for me is I actually just pulled many of the participants and asked what would they advise me to do different, many of them, particularly the independent consultants said, I would have rather had more time. And time in so far as either a longer conversation the day of, or, frankly, a few of them said, I would have liked to have had the conversation broken into a couple of theories so that I could think about it in between and come back. And so I’m still not sure what I’m going to do with that. But for me, I think it offered people a chance to connect, and they got more value out of it than I had actually even anticipate it, which is is wonderful, right? So again, I think a lesson learned is just to really lean into the fact that people do want to contribute, they do want to learn themselves. And if you make it a good experience for them, they are happy to to contribute. And so for me that that was the second big learning was just people are looking for ways to contribute. And so leveraging that and making it useful to them. And the third part is just to be realistic around what it takes to produce quality assets from from this. So in our case, we produced a podcast for each roundtable stream together six to eight voices into a coherent story, which was no small task. So I think to do it over again, I probably would have done maybe one less podcasts and maybe do one podcast at the end of all of them and amped up some of the the written pieces that came throughout. So again, I don’t know for sure if that’s the right answer. But I think just being realistic about what it takes to produce these assets, post conversation, I think doing fewer more meaningful, more well defined assets could be beneficial. And actually, the final advice I would give you is, again, people want to contribute. So our next time we will do a much better job of giving all of the participants hey, here’s an asset that you can post under your name or here. is exactly how you get the most out of LinkedIn or here is how you can cross reference this on the other pieces. Because my experience is a lot of independent consultants haven’t yet cracked the code around how to engage in social media, how to build their own profile, how to take advantage of all of these things. And so I think that there was work that we could have done, and I’m still learning it myself, like, let’s be honest, I have a long way to go to learn it. But I think Had we been more prescriptive for our participants about how they could get their own lift from their participation, that would have been helpful. So that will be something in the next series that we spend more time on.

Will Bachman 25:37
Okay. All right. Um, let’s talk a little bit about the content of this. Again, you know, so you had this three part framework, reimagine what’s possible, rebuild with intent and reset your team. And under each of those, there’s either two or three points. Um, talk to, and this, again, is, you know, figuring out how companies can get back to a can get can, you know, build a hybrid type workplace with, with both remote and, you know, in person employees? What were you dive in anywhere? What was one of the maybe more surprising or counterintuitive, or what you thought, powerful insights that came out of this whole process for you?

Tineke Keesmaat 26:27
I think one of my favorite insights was, this is really a unique moment in time for business leaders to really step back and reimagine what they want for their companies. So the pandemic, you know, forced many companies to adjust their strategy. So if you think about, even in your day to day, right, like how you get groceries has changed how you go to the gym has changed. And I think leaders have to ask the question around what of these changes have created long lasting strategy opportunities for us? versus which of those were a moment in time? And because everyone went through some incredible shock here, the the rulebook is kind of blown open. So leaders can really step back and say, Hey, you know, what do I want? Where will we win? What do our customers actually need from us right now. And if you start from a place of strategy, and really kind of not just drifting into the continuation of what you are today, but if you stop and pause about what has the pandemic crater for us, that actually provides you a great lens to then start to think about what organization what culture will really allow us to deliver it. So again, the this idea that the pandemic actually, as painful as it has been, it did create a unique moment for leaders to really step back and think about what they want. That would be the first thing. The second is that there is no perfect hybrid model. When we started this work, I think people came, I think you’re part of the first conversation, right? Where people came with very narrow descriptions of what hybrid meant. And through this process, we started to really look at it’s a huge spectrum, everything from Hey, hybrid means to us that you come to the office, you know, one day a week in your home four days a week, to Hey, you’re actually never in the office, except for these very specific moments when we want to pull people together for a cultural experience. And, and everything in between. And so I think acknowledging or understanding that hybrid is all of those things. And each leader needs to really think about which of that spectrum what model is really going to work for them. And then to take the time to be very deliberate in customizing it for their population, their geography, their business goals, the culture that they want to create. And it’s through that customization that you’re going to get very, very specific about what model is going to most unleash what you’re trying to create from a business and a cultural perspective for your company.

Will Bachman 29:06
Yeah. So pre COVID, when most people are showing up for hot probably at an office, we sort of know how to operate in that world. And we kind of figured out how to work in a world where it just all the office workers are remote, like, maybe it’s a bit annoying, but you kind of know how to work in that world. But it’s this world where it’s in between where some people will be in the office and some people will be remote. There’s probably no one right answer there. But are there certain modalities that you see companies settling in on being like local optima of this you know, this one seems to work this seems to work like maybe we’re everybody comes in to work, you know, three days a week and can work remotely the other two that they want or are there things they companies should totally avoid like this is there’s no one right answer. But this is a wrong answer just

Tineke Keesmaat 30:06
from them. I know you’ll find this answer probably less than satisfying. I don’t think we’ve had enough people playing at it with intention yet to know which ones are going to fail and which models are going to succeed. I think the biggest point of failure is not declaring very clear expectations around what it means. So when you have people working in a place that’s ambiguous, right, like, do I have to come in this day? Do I have to come in that way? Or where people feel like it’s just a pick your own adventure to based on what they feel like at that moment? I think that’s when folks will fail. So for me, you just need to declare with certainty, what are the what are the rules of the road here? Right, and being very clear, and I don’t know that necessarily, you have to declare that yes, at the top level of the organization, you need to set that guardrails. But I think each team needs to go through that process to say, What does hybrid mean for us within that construct? And in our conversations through the roundtables, people got very specific, right. So with our team, you know, in order to ensure we have a common experience, if one or two people, if two people are in a room, and everybody else is remote, the two people in the room, the expectation is that they either separate and go to different rooms, so that they’re not talking to each other, or they are still talking to their computers so that they are engaging with remote words. Now, very specific, very minute example. But it is just being thoughtful about if this is our model, what does this mean? And Does everybody know what it means to be successful within that model? And I think that is the the big imperative for leaders is to setting that that clarity to start. And, you know, and then just learning and adapting, right, because I think that all the models that you laid out, they all have their strengths, their their challenges. And and frankly, I don’t think any model that anybody sets out to do tomorrow is going to be the right model for them. I think all the models will evolve through trial and error. So the point is, be clear measure, refine, and eventually companies should get to the right model for their unique set of circumstances.

Will Bachman 32:09
Yeah, yeah. So some companies have announced that they’re just going to stay remote, like some of the tech companies, but and it’ll be interesting to see over the next year, just how it’s gonna be.

Tineke Keesmaat 32:25
And I think many of the companies that declared Alright, in some of the conversations that I’ve had, they’ve declared it but they haven’t figured it out all yet. out. Oh, yeah. Right. So we’re definitely going to be remote first. And then when you actually talk to people within those companies, they’re like, yeah, we’ve kind of set it but we don’t actually know what it means. So I do think that is not to be just make a sweeping generalization. I think many leaders are still in the thick of figuring it out. And I think that’s, there’s greatness in that, right? Because we haven’t done this before. We haven’t actually had to kind of navigate this kind of systematic shift. And there is no perfect answer. So in that there’s the the willingness and the ability to experiment. And we’re going to start to see probably in the next six to 12 months, people communicating what’s working, what’s not working as they actually start to live the models in practice versus principle.

Will Bachman 33:21
I wonder if we’ll start to see almost a barbell kind of shape where we see two very different types of companies emerging with I wonder if like, some companies will just say, we’re a mostly in person company. And maybe occasionally they’ll have carve outs where Oh, if you’re sick, or whatever, you can work remotely that day. And then some companies will be mostly like remote where almost everybody is remote. And employees will then sort of go to one of the other.

Tineke Keesmaat 33:53
Yeah, I’m curious. I’m equally as curious. Because I don’t know, I think you have to also remember that, even without the pandemic, what many employees want has shifted over the last 10 years. So in some ways, the pandemic just accelerated, what I think would have been a natural progression to more flexible work environments, right. So and some of this is driven by business needs, right? We have very specialized talent that we can’t source locally. So we need to think about talent being global. It’s can be driven by employee needs. We know that the famous millennial and Gen Z population that they don’t want to be at work, you know, broad stereotypes. They don’t want to be at work every day. And so they want that flexibility. A lot of work into mothers being in the workplace, they just, they want to work hard, but they need the flexibility, right? So in some ways, I’m not sure my hypothesis is that that traditional, always in person model 100% of the time, I think you’re gonna see fewer Those, but the extent of the flexibility will vary. Because I think there is a lot of upside for what the future of work needs to look like based on business need and employee wishes, if you will.

Will Bachman 35:15
So let’s give that link one more time. So if someone wants to go and download this, they should go to

Tineke Keesmaat 35:23
WWW dot tilt co t i l t co.ca.

Will Bachman 35:28
And then click on the tab that says hybrid. You got it? Fantastic. tanika it was a lot of fun chatting with you about how this all came together. It was a lot of fun and being playing a very small part, you know, attending attending one of the workshops, one of the roundtables. Thanks so much for being on the show today and telling us about, about the whole backstory behind behind your playbook.

Tineke Keesmaat 35:54
Amazing. Thanks well, and thank you again for all of your support in making it all happen. Thank you.

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