Will Bachman 00:01
Hello, and welcome to Unleashed the show that explores how to thrive as an independent professional. I’m your host Will Bachman and I’m here today with Jeffrey fiddlerman, who is the founder of fiddlerman and company. Jeffrey, welcome to the show. I will thank you so much for having me. So Geoffrey, you were telling me the story the other day of how you started out yourself as an independent consultant, and then you needed some help you engage a few contractors and that led on to something you gauge some more. And now you have a firm with what about 1520 employees?

Jeffery Fidelman 00:41
Yes, so we are we just turned the corner 32 consultants 32. Holy smokes Yeah. 32 consultants, but certainly, you know, started started very slow and almost had a snowball effect as we as we rolled into not only 2020 but the coronavirus pandemic. And through that now,

Will Bachman 01:04
congratulations. That is amazing growth not many people reach that, that level of growing from Tell me a little bit about your the focus of your firm, what what kind of clients do you serve?

Jeffery Fidelman 01:16
Sure. So what I what I really label our firm, as is a management consulting firm, with a focus on strategy and operations. Typically, we’re working with companies that I would say are late stage startups are lower middle market companies, businesses that have a product have a service, and are in the market executing on that product or service. So they are generating revenue, they may or may not be profitable. But again, have a product have a service and are currently in the market had gotten over that execution risk. am I’m in terms of

Will Bachman 01:52
Yeah, and what does lower middle market mean, in your world? Like, what size of a company is that in terms of revenue or profits or number of employees? Just help me understand that term.

Jeffery Fidelman 02:04
So lower middle market, I would define as at or under $100 million in revenue. And it’s interesting to be asked the question, what does that look like in terms of size in terms of number of employees, because I’ve had the opportunity to work with companies that had 10 employees generating 20 $30 million of revenue. And on the other side, working with companies that had 100 employees, only doing about seven or $10 million in revenue. So it’s it’s tough to answer the question in terms of number of employees or size in that manner. But certainly from a revenue perspective, there are certain trigger points and certain changes that you need to implement in your operational process, not only in order to grow to that size, but then after that size as well.

Will Bachman 02:51
And are you mostly working with sort of funded startups? Or will you serve the local garden center that’s been around for 30 years and has 25 million in revenue? So? Yeah, that’s the question.

Jeffery Fidelman 03:08
So yes, is the answer. And and to break that down, we have worked with family owned businesses that are in their third generation continuing to grow to thrive. One of our clients right now is a 100 year old Insurance Agency, wow. repositioning themselves continuing to grow their legacy business, but also implementing kind of this layer of tech enabled tools for all of their agents internally. And then on the flip side, you know, yes, also we have worked with and continue to work with companies that are only a year or two old have have just developed that product or service, have put it out into the market, have found early success and are and are now thinking about, how do we standardize our operations? How do we standardize our success? And really, that’s that’s kind of where we come in. And we’re, we are able to help a lot of these businesses.

Will Bachman 04:03
Alright, cool. So you gave me a sense of your clients. Talk to me a bit about the range of the services you provide.

Jeffery Fidelman 04:11
So from services, I would break down strategy and operations into the following ways. So on the strategy side, first is outbound growth. So when I say outbound growth, we’re able to work with a business with their key stakeholders to understand who is their target audience? Who is their target demographic, who is their target geographic region. And what are head of growth is able to do is go into that business and develop a bespoke outbound marketing engine that that has campaigns that has sequencing that has essentially all of the operations built into it that’s needed to run. We’re then able to fill the top of the funnel with lead gen through a variety of subscription sources that that our head of growth has and continue to Generate at the very least leads for that company. Also, on the strategy side, most often we’re about to work with companies on their fundraise efforts. So when I say fundraise efforts, it’s mostly helping them with the assembly of the collateral. For that fundraise for that capital, raise, presentations, financial models, valuation, analysis, market research, and everything else that fills the gap. The only thing we don’t do on that front is actually raise the capital. We’re not brokers or third party marketers, and I try to make that very clear to clients that, that are looking for those types of services that we we don’t solicit investors on their behalf. Now, oftentimes, because of the work we do with them, they ask us to stay on as active advisors or interim CEOs, to help them go through the transaction process. So help them with answering diligence questions, managing the data room, term sheet negotiation along with those investors. And that that kind of parlays me into the operating side or operational services that we provide, which are really helping a company streamline and ensure business continuity. So helping either revise or create operating manuals, policies and procedures, underwriting manuals, things or documentation that that will ensure for both the stakeholders and any investors that are in the business, that this is a business that has generated excellent revenue, once they grow to 20, or 50, or 100, or $10 billion. They have a set of policies and processes, they have a understanding of what is working, and they’re trying to replicate what’s working.

Will Bachman 06:43
That’s very cool. So I, as a consultant myself, have worked with clients and help them on standard operating procedures for some specific thing like how to start up this piece of equipment or maintenance on this piece of equipment. I’ve never actually helped a client on this business continuity aspect of policies and procedures, kind of across the whole gamut. I don’t even know if I’ve sort of seen that sort of documentation in whole at a client. Tell me a little bit about what that looks like. And give me a more granular sense of the types of processes that you’re documenting what the deliverable looks like how its maintained, just tell me a little bit about that world.

Jeffery Fidelman 07:32
So when I talk about policies and procedures that are an operating manual, I don’t mean a two or 300 page document. What I’m talking about is more on a management operations perspective. So every company has a product or service that they sell. And every company typically goes through some sort of process or some sort of procedure, after making that sale to the execution and delivery of that product or service. So whether you’re a consultant, a widget manufacturer, or or a banker, once you make that sale, there’s a certain internal process that that begins to occur. So you have your sales people, your marketing people, your marketing engine, or however you’re generating business, you’ve generated the lead, you’ve generated the business, you’ve made the sale. Now what? And now what is, is where we step in, so you’ve made the sale, the sale is now on the books. And now you need to deliver on that purchase, you’ve collected money. And now you need to deliver your product or service. So what happens after making that sale? And how is that process? First of all, is it streamlined? And is it efficient? And if not, where are the frictional costs that can be removed, who is responsible for taking that executed transaction from taking that sale, and moving it all the way through this funnel until there is a delivery of that, that product or that service? So again, going back to widgets, it could be a surfboard, it could be a toy, that I go online, I buy a product. Now what needs to happen in order for me to receive that product. Oftentimes, with larger kind of mass manufacturing, or mass production companies, a lot of these things are automated and there’s very little human interaction. But the more you get into these later stage startups, lower middle market companies, or even service these types of businesses, or financial these types of businesses, there’s very little automation that intrinsically is involved in the operations there. Okay, so really just streamlining again, I’m talking about a 10, maybe 20 page document. The sale was made. Now who’s responsible for servicing that sale? Is it operations is it underwriting is it originations is it As an admin person, and then from there, what needs to happen in order for that, for that sale to be effectuated, for that good or service to be delivered?

Will Bachman 10:10
Okay, so I guess that helps me understand it. At Umbrex, for example, we do have several, we have policies like that, but they’re embedded in Trello, effectively. So we have a process for when we sign a new project with a new client, we have a process in Trello, for if we’re onboarding a new consultant, as a subcontractor for the first time, all the steps we go through to get their w nine and to, you know, do the contract and to get their billing info and so forth. Same thing, onboarding, with a new client, making sure that they have, we’ve done our vendor setup form, and so forth. So for us, that’s kind of just embedded in the system, as you know, as a Trello, kind of workflow.

Jeffery Fidelman 11:00
How it’s exactly what you’re talking about. And now imagine if you know, not, if, let’s say, when, you know, the company goes from a million in sales to 10 to 100 million in sales, you already have that process established. But is it documented somewhere? Is it something that as you grow, you may need to bring on more people. And more and more people that come on? Is there a very specific process that all of them are following, or if you have 10 people in operations, or all 10 of them following a different process or a similar process, but in a different way? Interesting, the idea is to make sure that as a company grows, and and frankly, to enable it to grow, systematically, or scalably, let’s say, these policies, these processes, what you already have implemented, should be documented somewhere just so they’re in black and white, in front of you and the person who’s actually executing on that. Just so there’s, there’s the idea of setting expectations both ways between management and employees, between stakeholders and management, and all around.

Will Bachman 12:08
Yeah. So for companies in this say 10 million to 100 million revenue size. How do you typically see those sorts of policies documented? In what format? Is it a Word document? Is it a Google document? Is it some sort of, you know, other sort of instance and Evernote note? I mean, physically, how is it maintained such that it can be, you know, updated in that everyone can access the most up to date, current version, there’s version control? Tell me low does that how that process of managing policy documentation works?

Jeffery Fidelman 12:47
Sure, so. So I guess, going into a lot of companies now, I’ve seen a bevy of documentation, ranging from, you know, a Word doc outline, or Google Doc outline, through an Excel workbook. I’ve seen PowerPoint presentations that go through all of these things. And I think, most importantly, it’s in a form that’s easily shared amongst you and anyone else that has a role or responsibility that’s mentioned in this operating manual or policies and procedure documentation. And what’s important to note is that no matter what, no matter how much you grow, or how or how efficiently you grow, whether it’s the same growth or different growth, whether you’ve pivoted or not, this is a living, breathing document. So no matter what’s put together, day one, the idea is, of course, foundationally speaking, things have grown and you have grown along with this document. But there are always going to have to be minor changes and adjustments needed to continue that growth. And, and the most successful companies that we’ve seen implementing, have collected data points on executing specific standard operating procedure. And then 3045 180 days later, make adjustments based on the analysis when they look back over that time. So to give you an example, and we often look to our own firm as we grow to, to kind of consult on ourselves, but to use even us as an example. We also implemented and have, frankly, always been implementing a standard operating procedure, and how we generate sales and market ourselves and close clients and bring in those types of clients. And we share the same standard operating procedure amongst all of our principles. Fast forward 30 or 45 days later, we’re able to now look back to look at conversion rates to look at conversations to look at hard data points outside of using our own guts are emotional intelligence to weigh in on what worked and what didn’t work. And what we found after doing now, almost a dozen of these turns is that even though on the first, first implementation on the second implementation, we may have seen a small dip in terms of productivity, we are now leaps and bounds ahead of where we were. Because we were able to see what works, we were able to see what did not work, or I can’t say nothing, I can’t say anything, purely did not work, or rather, didn’t work as we expected it to, we were able to make minor changes implemented across the company. And now our conversion rates and our efficiency, as mentioned before, are just exponentially better than what they were even 12 months ago.

Will Bachman 15:46
That’s awesome. So it’s easy for a document like this to quickly get out of date. Particularly because you’re always, you know, adding exceptions and this and that. So you may have a process for onboarding, you know, or just for a process for sending invoices to clients. But then you get, you know, some new client and they want don’t want to PDF invoice, they want you to submit it to the system. So you want to document that, you know, exception, and some other client wants you to, you know, send it in a four size PDF, and you know, and have a file name that’s less than 25 characters, those are some real things that I’ve seen. So you need to document these things as you go. Who do you typically see as responsible, I imagine, you have to designate a point of contact, or someone who’s in charge of making sure that this policies and procedures get updated on an ongoing basis? So how does successful companies manage that?

Jeffery Fidelman 16:48
So so I’ll, I’ll address two points that you’ve made. The first being How do we address exceptions? And the answer is that we don’t. We don’t because you’re, if you allow exceptions to be made, you’re ruining your own data set. And, and if, for example, a client of ours wants an invoice and in some way that was not done before, you know, we would look at the end of the day, I don’t necessarily want to lose a client. But to start making exceptions for one person becomes a slippery slope, you make exceptions for every other client. And now your standard operating procedure to your point has been edited 17 times over the course of one month, you try to analyze the data that you were trying to collect in the first place, and you can’t, and then you’re left starting all over again by saying Okay, now we’re implementing a Policies and Procedures Manual, we are not going to make exceptions to this. And the reality is, is that that’s why I mentioned your business, our business, anyone’s business may or may not take an initial. Again, I’m I’m hesitant to say hit. Because you would be surprised that saying this is our standard procedure. This is my standard legal contract, which legal has reviewed, many clients have signed it. And if a client comes in and tries to negotiate 17 times over on the legal contract, again, do we make exceptions internally? Yes, it really depends on the client, and it does go over to legal, but by and large 95% of the time, my responses, this is standard operating procedure for our firm. And that’s kind of where where the conversation ends. Again, you know, it’s, I’m, I’m hesitant to to make such a stark statement here. But it is what we have implemented. And I, I do see a benefit. Now looking back over that, that implementation of processes, again, whether it’s for our own firm internally, or for the hundreds of clients that we’ve worked with in the past, in terms of responsibility of actually updating that document. So so as you implement this procedure manual, and and begin that period of time, whatever you predetermine, to be one to six months, whatever the case may be, you are collecting data points, the easiest data points to collect are what worked by doing the standard operating procedure. What goes into a little bit more of a gray area is what didn’t work. So writing down all of these potential exceptions that would otherwise have been needed. Or you know, you’re going to most likely analyze the data and see that because you did not make certain exceptions, you still ended up closing 60 70% of the business that you otherwise would have made an exception for. So taking a look at business lost, why it was lost, what exceptions were asked for, and what can now be implemented. 369 months later to make this process more efficient. You sit down with the C suite You have an hour, three hour six hour long meeting to really go through the nuts and bolts of the operating procedure as its stance, and what recommendations are made to change it, and then you change it. So perhaps it’s on a quarterly basis, perhaps it’s on a biannual basis, but it’s certainly not more frequent than that. Otherwise, you’re you are losing. You’re losing the just the data that comes behind actually implementing those those documents.

Will Bachman 20:32
Okay, wait a minute, are you saying like, let’s say a client says, Hey, you know, we don’t do like emailed invoices with us, you have to, you know, register with this invoicing system that we use, like Koopa, or transept, or one of these systems, you would tell them hey, sorry, you know, we just mail email invoices, that’s it, take it or leave it? Like, they’re, when they’re gonna say, Okay, we’ll leave it. We don’t do that. I mean, we won’t pay. Again, not necessarily, you’d walk away from that business.

Jeffery Fidelman 21:02
Oh, look, everything is relative speaking. So if I’m, if I’m answering that, from my perspective on how we bill, so we, we have tried to implement as efficient billing processes we can. So from our perspective, we use QuickBooks, we use t sheets, we bill every two weeks, at the end of the billing period, all of the hours from t sheets are imported to QuickBooks invoices created sent out to our clients. If a client came to me and said, Look, we’re not going to be paying through QuickBooks, you need to submit all of your hours through this other system. Frankly, of course, I would agree to it, I would have one of our admins just pull a report from tea sheets, and enter it in their billing system. But from our like, from a, from a general operating perspective, nothing would change to any of our consultants, any of the way that they bill or any of the way that they work, the only, the only change really that would happen is on the admin side, we would still be sending an invoice over QuickBooks most likely just to have it generated in our accounting system. But then there would be an extra maybe 20 or 30 minutes worth of work for an admin to go into their billing system and enter those hours. Yeah,

Will Bachman 22:11
that’s my point. So yes,

Jeffery Fidelman 22:12
of course, there’s an exception on that. But that, but that exception wouldn’t necessarily need to be documented in a in an operating manual. Oh,

Will Bachman 22:21
but what happens at that, like, clerk who happens to just know that they have to do that leaves? Like, how is the replacement gonna know? It’s noted on the client file. Okay, so it’s noted somewhere. All right. Cool. So of course, yeah. So what do you what do you typically see at a company that’s 2050 100 million in size, who’s typically the executive responsible for making sure that these policies and procedures get up to updated on an ongoing basis, so that they’re, you know, constantly current with with with things as as things change.

Jeffery Fidelman 23:01
So unfortunately, a lot of time, especially once you’re growing, I wouldn’t necessarily say at the 100 million dollar mark, at that point. There, there are some at the very least loose documentation in place, whether it was required by investor or just the C suite. But in earlier in earlier companies, once they’re hitting maybe 5 million, maybe 10 million, maybe around a million dollars, a lot of times these processes are not actually documented in any formal way. Typically, I would say it’s someone in operations, Director of Operations, a COO, someone somewhere upper upper down the chain there, and operations would be the person responsible for that. Because ideally, that’s the person who’s responsible for day to day operations for understanding the ins and outs of the business. Right? I think that the CEO is ultimately the person responsible for making sure all of these things are done. And certainly any changes to that policies and procedures or operating manual, need to be reviewed and approved by, you know, all the necessary stakeholders, the C suite or whomever. But ultimately, it’s, it’s operations who need to be on top of that.

Will Bachman 24:12
Cool. Let’s switch gears and talk about the first area. You mentioned the outbound growth. Now, to some degree, this is an area where you have especially on LinkedIn, you have so many people reaching out saying, oh, we’ll do lead generation for you, you know, probably get 510 of those people reaching out to me every day. So, and it feels like most of those are kind of scams or people who you know, aren’t going to be able to deliver. Tell me a little bit about your process. I’d like to hear about, you mentioned some subscription sources. I’d love to hear sort of what sorts of those things are, maybe walk me through a sample engagement of how you have, you know, done this outbound growth piece and what’s involved. What are the steps

Jeffery Fidelman 25:01
Sure, so so we take a very different approach to, I’m hesitant to even call it lead generation in a traditional sense, I get the same same notes you do. I’ve looked into a few of them a few years ago. And and frankly, the ones that are not, or rather are aboveboard, or not offer are not often delivering what I actually need. So when we brought on a head of growth, we started working with her to understand how, how to generate proper leads for our own business, and how to set up a system where we can mechanize that that process. And ultimately, what we had developed, started offering to clients who have seen an incredible kind of increasing traction from is that we’ll go into a business, again, widgets at Will’s widget factory, we will try to understand the the audience, the demographics, the geographic location of that audience, and really who who is your best or ideal type of customer, what we do is we put together a basically a sales campaign, or rather an email campaign that is built into this engine. As you can imagine, it’s not we use a platform called says sales handy.

Will Bachman 26:31
I’m sorry, what is it? It’s called sales handy sales handy. Okay,

Jeffery Fidelman 26:37
and this is there, you know, there are a number of marketing email platforms out there that anyone can set up happy to share this information on this podcast as well, where you building campaigns, you’re filling your top of the funnel with leads, you have to write copy for your own campaigns, you have to put together the cadence of which they go out. And what you do with responses without responses, we’re able to set this up in a business where we will generate the leads for you go out through Sales Navigator through pitch books through crunchbase Pro to to really go after your target audience, we fill the top of the funnel of this so called engine that we built. And then we run the engine. And running that engine entails will or will sales team giving us an idea of their availability. So Monday, Wednesday, Friday 8am to 3pm. Eastern. And our job is then to take that time block and to fill it with as many qualified leads as we can. So unlike traditional marketing firms, and again, we are in no way shape or form just a marketing firm. But unlike those firms that are generating leads and are charging you per lead, we’re actually building the system and process for you under your company. Jeffrey, at wills, widget factory comm is the person sending out the emails, and then putting you directly in touch with your target audience. So we don’t get involved there. We have sales specialists and happy to do that for some of our clients. But by and large, what our clients are asking for is get me in front of buyers of my product of my service. Here’s my availability, go to town on my calendar. And that’s exactly what we do. We book a call with again, sales team with will with anyone in between that you instruct us to do and get you on the phone in front of your target audience.

Will Bachman 28:31
Yeah. Could you unpack a little bit? What I’m really interested is the practicalities of how do you actually identify those emails that you’re going to reach out to? And, you know, maybe tell us a little bit about how that works? Do you buy email lists? Or do you identify people and then use hunter.io to look up their email address? How do you actually find the people you want to reach out to? And the contact info?

Jeffery Fidelman 29:05
Sure, so outside of, again, a number of subscription sources, we are able to just get all of the information we need from from what’s available, quite frankly, it’s not like at the end of the day, I think that a lot of what we do involves asking the right questions as opposed to just giving all the answers. And I say that because we’re we’re able to, or have been able to thus far, really based on a conversation with that stakeholder understand what that audience looks like. We’re not trying to fill it with, you know, 10s of 1000s of people just to waste your time on the phone, but rather put your sales team in a position where they’re talking on the phone to someone who is at least a more likely buyer than if they were just cold calling. It’s a warm intro because you have a zoom call set up And and, you know, ultimately the sale is up to the client or up to the person on the phone in terms of getting that contact information, and we run it through a number of different scraping sources that at the very least ensure a higher level of quality, I think I think it’s important to kind of take it back and say that we’re not in in the fact that we’re not a traditional marketing company, we’re not charging per lead. So I’ve I’ve also gotten those calls where we’ll charge $3, a lead $9, a qualified lead or $25, to pre qualified lead, were simply charging for the time spent involved in actually building that engine for the business in filling that funnel in scheduling all those appointments. And we’re constantly going through feedback loops. So a week or two into the initial campaign outreach, and let’s say 20 3040 calls into it, we’ll jump on a call with the with the principals that the company will try to get an understanding of the leads they’ve spoken to, we’ll have them rate every lead live between one to five, and the focus will be to concentrate on the four and five star leads, and to pull away the one two and three star leads.

Will Bachman 31:15
Could you you mentioned widgets earlier, but can you give us a real example in a sanitize it if you need to. So we can sort of understand what this looks like in practice?

Jeffery Fidelman 31:26
Sure. So one of our clients, I won’t name them, but is a 100 year old Insurance Agency, okay, they have recently developed a really, really cool product that analyzes and individual households, insurance coverage, whether or not they have any discrepancies, whether or not that you have any areas or gaps in insurance coverage. So the idea was to help them with the product, help them build the company, help them put their policies and procedures together along with a few other aspects, and then ultimately help them put together a go to market strategy. So part of that go to market strategy included, building up this sales engine within the business. And, and when we looked at who are the key stakeholders, who are most likely the buyers, after speaking with them, it became very clear that they were looking at centers of influence outside of insurance agents themselves. So building this engine, who are we putting into the top of that funnel was insurance agents, insurance agencies, and other centers of influence has its tail estate lawyers or accountants that would either use this product for their clients or recommend the product to their clients. And that proved and it’s it’s continuing to work now. But that proved to be very, very successful, almost from the get go just because we had such a niche audience to go after. I mean, needless to say, the more specific we can get to an audience, the higher likelihood that the conversion rates will be much higher.

Will Bachman 33:04
So you identified as one of the groups there would be, say, estate lawyers. So I imagine you somehow scraped together, you know, a list of, you know, all the estate lawyers in the United States or in some geography, and found all their email addresses. Yes. All right. You mentioned subscription services. I don’t know if you feel that those are kind of like the proprietary the list that use or can you share any that you found to be particularly helpful?

Jeffery Fidelman 33:35
It depends what you’re looking for. Sometimes a subscription service like pitchbook, can be very helpful. Sometimes a subscription service like crunchbase Pro can be very helpful. It really depends on who is your target audience. I think that the widest availability of information will likely come from LinkedIn, from a live perspective, meaning it’s updated almost on a daily basis, if not, if not more often, with people’s information. But also you have a little bit more more reach and clarity to those people. So having, for example, LinkedIn Sales Navigator, I think it’s about $80 a month. If you’re using it the right way to target people can provide a lot more value than than it does in terms of cost.

Will Bachman 34:22
Yeah, no, we, you know, I have Sales Navigator myself and I, I do recommend that pitchbook and crunchbase for folks that aren’t familiar with them like me. Can you tell me what each one of them sort of what kind of information you can find there and roughly, you know, how much is this subscription?

Jeffery Fidelman 34:41
So crunchbase you’re looking crunchbase I think is about $30 a month. Okay, you’re looking at a lot of information that is based on company rounds. Sorry, company funding rounds, m&a transactions. Who’s behind them what investors look like in those businesses what technology certain companies are using. So certainly to AI, consultants and technology types of providers, I would highly recommend a crunch. Because you have clarity and transparency into the tech stack that a certain business is using, which book is is kind of the the other extreme in both types of companies as well as cost. So I believe pitch book is roughly $25,000 a year. stark contrast, clearly, they provide a lot more information on invest tours, and later stage companies. So if you’re looking at who invested in the latest, or the last Uber round, you can likely get all of those LPs information, contact information, email addresses all of that. That’s typically used a lot more by instance, to tional, either funds or brokers. It has, we’ve been able to use that with some of the companies we work with, just to point them in the right direction in terms of who they should be going after in terms of capital raises. Oftentimes, we’re using the subscription services, again, to to help businesses through growth, so we’re not raising capital. On the other hand, we’re trying to put them in touch with perhaps strategic partnerships and other companies, or people who we think would be ideal buyers for for whatever business we’re working with.

Will Bachman 36:34
Fantastic. Any other subscriptions that you found helpful.

Jeffery Fidelman 36:40
Um, apollo.io has been very, very helpful as well. One of the tools that we use to to both scrape emails and to kind of clean them up before before putting that one is awesome in the high. High teams in terms of 1000s Okay,

Will Bachman 37:02
cool. So apollo.io All right. Well, Jeffrey, this has been really a fascinating discussion and congratulations on building a firm growing from being an independent yourself to growing a firm with with 30 folks, that is amazing. For folks that wanted to find you online and learn more about your firm. You want to share any links here?

Jeffery Fidelman 37:27
Sure, yeah, my my email my first name Jeffrey j. e FF, our UI at fiddle man co dot that is also the domain of our of our website, fiddle net, e L, and N co.com. We’re actually working on a brand new website, which should be coming out in the next week to 10 days. So whoever who goes on it on around September 22nd. Feel free to come back in about a week or so to see our new redesigned website.

Will Bachman 38:04
Fantastic. And we will include those links in the show notes. Jeffrey, thanks so much for joining today. Well, thank you again for having me.