Will Bachman 00:01
Hello and welcome to Unleashed the show that explores how to thrive as an independent professional. If you’ve been thinking about setting up your own independent consulting practice, you can visit umbrex.com. Click on the link that’s for set up your own practice. We have a guide with 90 videos and 30 templates to download to get you started on your own firm. I’m Will Bachman, your host and I’m here today with Steven Walker, who is the author of jobs to be done. Steve worked with Clayton Christensen at innosight for several years, helped develop this concept, wrote the book and now runs a boutique firm called new markets advisors. Steve, welcome to the show. Thanks for having me. Well, so let’s first start with jobs to be done. A lot of people have heard that buzz word heard the term. Maybe they’ve heard something about it. But I’d really like to dig into it with you today and understand the full jobs roadmap. I’ve read your book love it, I have it in front of me here. For people that are you know, somewhat familiar with it, but really haven’t maybe read the book or no then details. Let’s walk through that jobs roadmap. So tell me about what our jobs to be done?

Stephen Wunker 01:21
Sure. So look, this concept was first popularized by Clay Christensen. He mentioned he was my mentor for many years. And I first wrote about it in 2003, in his book, The innovators solution. And then subsequently that has been built out he came out with a book in 2016, called competing against luck, which sort of laid out the concepts. And I had a pretty much simultaneous book called jobs to be done a roadmap for customer centered innovation, that was sort of the way to apply jobs to be done in a practical project based setting. And we exchanged manuscripts throughout that process to make sure that these were complimentary books. So the concept is play had initially laid it out, is that people are not out there to buy products and services, they’re out to get stuff done in their lives. And when a product or service happens to fill that job, that’s great. But if you could do it through a lot of different ways, typically. So this morning, I went down to my mailbox, and I picked up New York Times. So I’m not subscribing to the New York Times, because I want to subscribe to a newspaper that is not my job to be done. It is to be informed to have something to talk about with my wife, to show the kids that I am reading a newspaper and not just looking at the newspaper on my phone. So I’m trying to demonstrate a certain activity. It’s a morning ritual that I can read that over breakfast, when everybody else is asleep in the house. So there are certain jobs there that the New York Times helps me get done. And those have both functional and emotional impacts. The way I first really got this concept. And you know, it’s not a novel concept, although I think they packaged it in a very tidy way that extends to a lot of circumstances. The way I first came across, it was actually back in the 90s as a gaming company. And we were consulting for an automaker on one of their big vehicle refreshes one of those once every four years revamping of a vehicle platform. We did a big survey of what people who were the target buyers for this car, were looking for in a car, we had about 300 different features like the turning radius and trunk room and headroom. We were really excited about the findings about the the gap between the satisfaction of needs and the extent that people had those needs. We came into the conference room to do the really big unveil. And we said the number one unsatisfied need that people have in the car is breaks. And there’s dead silence just like you gave me right now. And people looked at us like we were nuts. And this old car guy in the back of the room finally racists and it says, look, you guys are nuts. If there is one thing that people buy a car on, it’s not brakes, you idiots. It’s paint, it’s paint that sells cars. We looked at the data and of course the the data didn’t agree with that at all. But he was right and we were wrong. It is actually paint that sells cars. And our feeling was that we had asked the wrong question in the wrong way. It’s not what features are you looking for in a new car that you don’t think you might have today or even worse, our brand It’s really important to you will. And you probably say, Well, yeah, I can think of it, they are actually quite important. But that’s not how the real world works, we should have gone to a car dealership. And we should have understood how people actually make decisions and what their real motivations they have. And they want to stand out from the neighbors, they want to be distinctive and different and cool. And paint does that brakes do not. At the same time that we’re making a mistake. The folks at BMW were entering the small car market, they had bought the rights, the mini, which was a defunct brand hadn’t really produced for 30 years. And they didn’t even go out asking people what they wanted in new car, they just wanted to know what was important to them in amongst the buyers, they targeted. And they came to understand that people who were like typically in their 30s, predominantly female, they wanted to express their individuality, individuality, their fun that their uniqueness and so that, you know that they they have it, they are fun and unique and special people. And, you know, a Camry or a fit, or a jaros, these, we’re not getting those jobs done. And so they came out with what is fundamentally fairly cheap card produce. But it has an almost infinitely customizable body that allows them to get those jobs done. And they realize their competitive set wasn’t just scooters are wasn’t just cars, but it was scooters, and fashion and trips and other things that would allow people to make those sorts of statements. So they were able to position the car differently, to have a very unique piece of mental real estate for individuals. And they could premium price by about $5,000. What comparably equipped small cars were selling for. So in a segment of the industry where people generally don’t make any money. BMW makes a ton of money because they understood the jobs to be done. At a high level. Yeah, go ahead.

Will Bachman 07:08
I mean, that’s so interesting. This is a little off the topic. But I’ve often wondered, now living in New York City for the last, I don’t know, 1520 years, that the job to be done of a new yorkers car is very different than when I was a kid growing up in the suburbs. When I was groping in the suburbs, you pretty much kind of knew what car other people drove. You’d see it in their parking lot. You would you know, if they drove to school or drove to work, you’d see it in the parking kind of know what other people drove. I have even my close friends in New York City, I have no idea what car they drive. So that kind of job to be done of signaling status is almost like disappears if you live in New York City, I think and the different there’s like a different job of Can I park this car easily, you know? Or there’s a job of is this car going to avoid being stolen? Because it’s not one of the top? cars. It’s a very different job. Anyway, a little off

08:05
transport groceries, because that’s what I’m really using it to do.

Stephen Wunker 08:08
Yeah, exactly.

Will Bachman 08:10
So anyway, I’m sorry, off the topic. But so you thinking about not just what features people want, but what you know, actual object objective, is this serving in their life? Like how is it not so much need in terms of a feature? But what do you want this product or service to do for you?

Stephen Wunker 08:30
Yeah, well, look, we use the the jobs Atlas that you refer to as a tool to get people to work through the questions and sort of the right order. So we start out with trying to understand what are the relevant jobs that people were trying to get done? And you want to look a little broadly, so is working with with the retail bat bank, and we were talking about mortgages, and I first just started out with the sponsor, they’re saying, Well, what jobs do you think a mortgage is helping people get done? And the guy said, well, it’s to get a mortgage. No, incorrect. It is to buy a home or even more broadly to, to move home. DBS, which is the largest bank in Singapore reconceived the place that it took in the mortgage process by helping people think about should they move? What neighborhood should they move to that fit their sort of criteria? What’s going on in those neighborhoods in terms of home values or local developments? What how much house today afford? What are the considerations about what sort of houses might appreciate or depreciate in value? And then oh, by the way, we offer mortgages, but it put itself in pole position to do that by understanding the real jobs that people are trying to get done. So you start out with those jobs, and then you understand why people might prioritize certain jobs. over others in different contexts or circumstances?

Will Bachman 10:03
And what’s what’s like the Gunny? And what’s like the key question to ask to get at that, you know, so that doesn’t get at features, but really tries to understand what it is the job that people need done, like, how do you go after and get that information?

Stephen Wunker 10:20
That’s great question. You would typically want to do that obliquely, it isn’t about asking, Well, what jobs are you trying to get done? Right? Because, you know, people don’t talk like that. And you really needed to be natural and not like an over thought, post hoc rationalization. So you might say, Well, what are your priorities? What keeps you up at night? What do you find particularly challenging what’s tedious? You know, what really gives you some consternation or worries, you know, when you made that purchase, and try to get out of the abstract, if possible, and get into the the specifics where there’s often a lot of rich detail. So talk me through the last time you made that purchase. And why did you do that? If that hadn’t been there, what else would you have chosen? Why? So you want to take a few different tacks, and triangulated to really get at people’s core motivations, which they’ve often never articulated to themselves.

Will Bachman 11:21
I like your point in the book where you rather than asking people in general, what do they think people would want from ice cream? where you say, well, in general, people say, Oh, you know, it less calories or something, where you say, talk to me about the last time that you bought ice cream? What was the situation? And why did you buy it that specific time, you get very different answers. I thought that was really insightful.

Stephen Wunker 11:47
That’s right. What you find when you do that is that people will say, I, so if they were together with somebody, we were seeking an experience, I was out with my wife, and it was our date night, we figured it is a fun way to end date night or celebrating with my daughter after a softball game. Or I was on the boardwalk in Atlantic City, and we wanted to experience the place. And if they’re alone, it’s typically more about indulgence. And so you want to understand what drove indulgence on that occasion. And then you can really act on that once you get those insights. But you got to bathe in those insights first. So in that ice cream example, the folks that Unilever for their Ben and Jerry’s brand got those kinds of insights. And they created a variant of Ben and Jerry’s called core. And he might have had this it has this like killer of stuff like you could think like rich chocolatey do in the center. And then there might be vanilla on one side and cookie dough on the other side. And you are supposed to sort of mix it up. But some people just actually have to do because it is extremely indulgent, right, simply indulgent. And that’s sort of the point of that. But when you make stuff, of course, you mix it up in a different way every time. So we’re like the Cold Stone Creamery of, of ice cream at home. And that creates something that’s special to you. And if you do that, like with a kid, it creates an experience that you’re doing together. So you know, they’re getting that people aren’t buying ice cream, they’re buying indulgence and bonding and shared experience and something that is really special to them. And they were able through that formulation of what’s normal ice cream ingredients, but just in a very different way to package it. They were able to convey that all while staying within the constraints of a one pint cardboard tub that fits easily into our groceries freezer. And that’s my job sweet on allows you to do you discover Victor’s of innovation that you’d never thought were possible because you really are trying to satisfy totally different dimensions, then people in the product have traditionally thought about.

Will Bachman 14:06
Okay, great. So as we work through this Job’s Atlas, and for people that don’t have the book, or you know, just to envision it, this first step that we’ve talked through is about, know where you’re starting from. And that’s, there’s two tracks that first is to discover the jobs that stakeholders are looking to accomplish, which are prioritized based on their job drivers. And then this other piece is determine the current approaches that stakeholders have adopted and see where they’re experiencing the pain points. And that’s not my summary. That’s just me reading right from your book. So let’s say that we’ve done that so that’s that’s the first sort of diagnostic step. And then you get into charting the destination and roadblocks of identifying success criteria and investigating obstacles. Talk to us a bit about that phase. So let’s say we’ve gone through we’ve done the diagnostic. We’ll talk to us about this charting the destination phase.

Stephen Wunker 15:00
Sure. So then the next step is to figure out if these are the jobs we’re trying to satisfy. How do we signal to the user, it could be a consumer, or it could be a business business transaction, that those jobs have been successfully accomplished. So let’s let’s use another consumer example. Because they’re, they’re easy to relate to the Colgate whisk is, you know, it’s possibly the worst toothbrush ever invented. It’s about the size of my finger, the head is about the size of my fingernail. But bright bristles are teeny tiny, there’s a little bead in the center of the bristles that does nothing, it just conveys a little bit of flavor. And yet it sells about $100 million a year. It is a blockbuster consumer success in a field that hasn’t had a lot of innovation for about 80 years. So how does it do that? How does a lousy toothbrush become a blockbuster consumer success. So first of all, they had a very clear view of the jobs they’re trying to get done. The whisk is not about preventing ginger vitus, it is not to impress your dentist, it is to make yourself presentable for the afternoon. That’s it. So to do that, the vectors of success, the those success criteria are that you have to get the obvious bits of food from between your teeth. It does that the little flavor bead gives you a bit of flavor and confidence that you have fresh breath. Now in reality, that fresh breath, the flavor only lasts like 30 seconds. But the business of selling confidence is a wonderful business to be in. And it’s something that you can really feel. And it gives people a little bit of a break in their day for a personal care routine, reboots their day a little bit partly through that that fresh, fresh tasting, flavored beat. But then they also recognize that there are obstacles to using this new product or getting that those jobs done. So, you know, they asked why don’t people brush their teeth in the middle of the day when they’re out and about like have an office. And they realized one big obstacle is that there’s a taboo against spitting in public restrooms and a lot of countries. So the flavor bead in the center intentionally does not suds up, Kobe makes plenty of toothpaste, they could have made a toothpaste out. But they didn’t want anything that people would have to spit. However, there was also another obstacle about changing longstanding rituals. So we’ve been taught since we were maybe two or three years old, that you have to use toothpaste on a toothbrush. That by way is not actually true, about 94% of the cleaning of brushing your teeth is done by the mechanical action of the bristles, not the toothpaste. I think that’s amazing. Most people don’t this is News, you can use it. But you know, we think that we have to have toothpaste. So that flavor bead exists also to evoke that ritual that we think we have to have something there that is toothpastes like. And it is a single use device, even though could have been made more durable, not just for the the revenue stream of repeat purchase, although that’s part of it. But also because that makes it a better a better experience. If people did what I would probably do and look at a toothbrush saying that’s a perfectly good toothbrush, I’m not going to throw that away, I’m going to wrap it up in a paper towel and stick it in a drawer in my desk and dig it out after six months when when it’s all moldy, then I’ll throw it away. That’s not a good experience. So they they were able to have a very clear view of the success metrics and the obstacles to devise a solution that really got that job done.

Will Bachman 19:05
Yeah, cuz people don’t want to carry this toothbrush back to their desk in an office. It’s interesting how I mean, again, off the topic, but this is like, such an interesting cultural thing. I was on one project one time in Costa Rica of all places. Is that a call center there? And it was just the culture. I don’t know if it’s Costa Rica, or if it’s just that specific Call Center, where everyone brush their teeth after lunch. I mean, you go into lunch room after lunch, and there’ll be like a line of people, there’ll be five people brushing their teeth, and a lot of people waiting. I just, I mean, I’ve never seen anything like that in the US or anywhere else in the world. But, I mean, it’s interesting how it’s kind of culturally determined, but I’m sorry, I’m off the topic again.

Stephen Wunker 19:52
I’ve never been to Costa Rican call center. So it’s really interesting.

Will Bachman 19:57
Anyway, so so you’re looking at the obstacle. So one of the obstacles is, people want to brush their teeth, but they don’t want to have to deal with like a wet toothbrush and maybe put it in one of those weird plastic containers in their purse or in their desk or something. So right. So these, they just make them disposable. They’re so cheap EDP that you can just throw it away. Okay, what’s, uh, what are some ways more generally like? What are the kind of questions to ask as you’re defining success criteria for a new product or service? More generally? What are some of the questions to ask to get after that the success criteria and the obstacles.

Stephen Wunker 20:33
So you want to pare it back a little bit about what you might be hearing on the job to be done, and try to frame that. And you know, that way, you can also validate what you’re hearing, and then you can say, okay, so to give yourself a little bit of a reboot during the day, or to make yourself preventable or confident. What do you do now? Why do you do that? How do you know that got done? Very seldom will jobs be completely undone, people will find some way to compensate. And so by getting at that, you can sort of understand how people do assess that. Or if it isn’t being done in oil, you can at least get people to theorize about what will give you confidence that you’ve accomplished that successfully. You wouldn’t say you know what, that you got that job done? People again, don’t talk like that. But you would frame it in the sort of language that they use. And again, this could be in business to business or b2c sort of scenarios. Yeah. And then on the obstacles, same thing, right. So what gets in the way of you doing that today? What do you do instead? Why do you find that easier? Or more accessible, or cheaper? or whatever it might be?

Will Bachman 21:46
Yeah, I imagine that it’s also it’s probably difficult to really get at some of the obstacles, because some people will tell you, I mean, in your case, with the toothbrush, people might say, Oh, well, kind of a hassle to store the wet toothbrush. But people might be embarrassed to say, Oh, well, I don’t want to see be seen spitting in public. Like that’s a taboo. I mean, there’s there’s some things that you’d kind of be top of mind, but some more deeper emotional things might be harder to get at.

Stephen Wunker 22:14
Yeah, that’s right. And so you often have to ask, why, why? And don’t presume that you know, and then you’ll you’ll elicit these sorts of things I do when you know, sometimes if I got a live audience, I’ll talk to people about why they, why they chose the watch they’re wearing if they’re using a watch. And it’s interesting, I did this like last week. And, you know, I asked, Well, why do you have watched on why not a phone? And the person said, Well, if I use my phone, I’d get distracted by what else was there? So watch keeps me focused just on the time. That makes expected that answer, but it makes sense. Yeah.

Will Bachman 22:55
Okay, so you work through and densify the road, the destination in the roadblocks. So what are some success criteria, the next step is making the trip worthwhile. Talk to us about what that step means.

Stephen Wunker 23:10
So it’s about understanding the value that you’re creating and being able to price for the value and then relatedly understanding the competition for getting those jobs done. So let’s use the example of Chucky cheese. Do you have little children by any chance? Well,

Will Bachman 23:30
I do and we pretty much studiously avoided Chucky cheese, but I think you know where you’re going with this. We’re Yeah, we’re live in New York City. So we’re kind of a little bit snobbish about our pizza. But But keep going.

Stephen Wunker 23:45
Oh, well, you don’t have to live in New York to be snobby about Chucky cheese pizza, or the cake or the games or the really creepy mascot they have. I mean, this isn’t not a great experience. And yet, you know how much it costs to have a birthday party at Chucky cheese that they have three packages. And you have the star, the mega star and the mega superstar package from $15 to 25 bucks a head for kid. Now will Are any of your kids not mega superstars?

Will Bachman 24:20
Yeah, I mean, who wants to tell your kid? Well, you know, you’re just a plain superstar. I’m sorry.

Stephen Wunker 24:25
You’re only and you see the creepy mascot. Now. He’s barely sort of smiling with the star pack. It’s like Oh, thanks, dad for the lousy birthday. Whereas the mega superstar superstar he is really pumped. So certainly cheese is not selling pizza games, cake and ice cream. It’s selling parental guilt a suasion and that’s another great business to be in. And they realize that okay, people aren’t going to pay that much for a really lousy pizza, but for parental Gilda, suasion they can pay 25 bucks a kid no problem. So just like many deer, or BMW people did with many, Chucky cheese realizes that they’re actually creating a lot of value here. But just understand the job that people are really trying to get done. And then they can look at the other ways that people would get that job done the competitive set, and they can price for that, rather than on some cost plus sort of basis. So that makes the trip worthwhile when you’ve identified those jobs. And oftentimes, some of the highest value jobs are emotional. And by the way, that includes in b2b settings. People are not robots, everybody has emotions and emotions, do guide decisions, even in b2b sort of contexts. And so if you’re able to price for that, it can be extraordinarily lucrative. The interesting thing about that process that I laid out for you in the jobs roadmap, starting with the jobs and going to the the context of the drivers, the current approaches, through to the fifth surgery, the obstacles, the value of the competition, that is pretty much the reverse of what most companies do. They start with the competition, and then they think about what can they what sort of prices might they achieve? And then they figure out what might get in the way. And Okay, so what features Do we have to have in this product? And what’s the experience or the current approach going to be? What pain points will we alleviate? And then maybe they’ll get out of segmentation and ultimately, the jobs to be done. And that’s very convenient for the company. Alas, it is not how customers actually think or behave, they start with the jobs to be done. And only at the end of that process, do they consider a competitive set.

Will Bachman 26:53
So what we’ve talked so far is what you call in the book, the jobs Atlas. So everything we talked so far as part of that, and then the rest of the book you have using jobs to be done to build great ideas. And you’ll lay out six of them, which are establish objectives, plan your approach, build a jobs, Atlas, generate ideas, reframe your perspective, and experiment and iterate. Let’s dive into just one or two of those. I’m curious to hear. Could you talk a little bit more about reframe your perspectives in open innovation? Tell us tell us what’s that about.

Stephen Wunker 27:32
So we have a ideation process, while ideation processes. I like cars, but I’m also humble about it. So typically, if we have like a two day workshop to go over the findings from jobs, we’ve done research, qualitative and or quantitative. We will do some ideation at the end of day one. And people are all jazzed up, and that’s great. They’re high fiving they go to dinner, everybody’s having a great time. And then we come back in on the morning of day two, and we get people to take a totally different perspective. Right? What if Amazon did this, or Facebook did this or that tronic did this. And, you know, get them to really, totally reframe how they think about solutions to these jobs to be done, get people out of the blinders that they typically put on open innovation is one mechanism to do that. It’s a term that was coined by Hank chesbro, who’s in Berkeley. And you have several books on this. It’s basically reaching out into parties external to the company, to create an ecosystem of folks who can feed in ideas, sometimes they’re very deeply thought out solutions, potentially to confidential concepts, in sort of a narrow network of innovators, they are coming from different perspectives. Sometimes it’s very broad, where you just open your floodgates to the world and you have a lot of ideas, most of which aren’t any good. But some are, and they at least make you think not only about what is what the idea is for what’s behind that idea. One example of that ladder, ladder case. Frito Lay one’s an annual contest of create the next next flavor for Lay’s potato chips, and they get hundreds of 1000s of entries. They have a bunch of insurance look through them. And you know, the thing is that they don’t need your ideas on flavors, they have more flavors than you could possibly think of, as you know, things that they could do. They’re looking for trends. So if you know wasabi ginger is starting to take off as a flavor suggestion on the west coast. They’re going to know about mono about early. So it’s a brilliant way to enlist consumers in a trend tracking way. And you know, that’s open innovation, very different sort.

Will Bachman 30:15
What about this point about, experiment and iterate? So how do you include testing and learning in your jobs to be done journey?

Stephen Wunker 30:26
So, you do that in a couple of ways. First of all, through qualitative research, you might have a very good understanding of particular people you met. So let’s say you’re, you’re going to move to the burbs at last well, so I said, Okay, and that will through the research, and he’s going to be moving to Riverdale. And, you know, he’s got this set of jobs to be done and concerns and he’s got to get the moving truck outside his Co Op between just two hours, and it’s going to create a lot of headaches. So great, but you don’t know how many wills there are nor how to find them, nor how that correlates to other data you might have around media consumption or spending behavior. And so you do a survey to get that. So that’s one way to do it, early tests. But there’s a lot of other ways that you can then do low cost fast tests, actually, my colleague, Jennifer law, just as a new blog on our site, five ways to inexpensively test an idea then talks about some of that the scrappy tests are things that big companies are really terrible at doing things that entrepreneurs, good entrepreneurs and these really excel at. So I find consultants can create a lot of value for companies by just proposing very targeted, inexpensive, fast tests. You get learnings from that. Sometimes learnings have variables that you’ve defined, which you should do, but you need to leave the door open to unexpected learnings to that’s where some of the biggest value can sometimes come.

Will Bachman 32:07
Let’s talk a little about your firm. So you developed this con, you worked with Clayton Christensen, you learned from him you worked at his firm, you’re one of the leaders there. Now you run new markets advisors, tell us about the work that your firm does.

Stephen Wunker 32:24
Sure, so we are focused on helping companies to compete differently. So those could be innovative strategies. There is market research involved in that very typically. And then sometimes it’s about creating ongoing innovation capabilities through our projects as well, so that companies can, can do it. And they don’t always just depend on the outside innovators. We’re about 19 people. We have offices in Boston, San Juan, Puerto Rico and in Paris. And we focus on four vocal industries, tech consumer goods, healthcare and financial services.

Will Bachman 33:04
Can you tell us about an example project that kind of represents the kind of work that your firm does?

Stephen Wunker 33:13
I’m sure. So let’s see, we, of course, we work for a lot of big firms. But let me use a small firm as an example. It’s this example is actually on our website. So we’re totally authorized to talk about in detail. That company is called I rise, they basically invented the market for a website prototyping what’s now called wireframing. And they created a pretty expensive tool to create fully clickable prototypes of websites. But the problem is they ended up getting disrupted by low cost or even freemium players out there. And they ended up being stuck at the very high end of the market. And we’re running out of growth options. So they asked us to understand the jobs their customers were trying to get done, and what they could do about it. So we stepped back. And we looked at what fairly large corporate users of prototyping and wireframing software were doing. And it wasn’t just to prototype a wireframe. It was to create a collaborative environment to define the requirements for a new, a new site or service. And wireframe was one way to get that done, but they were cobbling together a whole range of disparate approaches. There was a lot of internal interviewing, there were Excel databases of requirements and elbows translated down to typically functional needs, or maybe there were tasks associated with doing that in something like JIRA. And then there were these these leaps of reasoning. From, okay, we’ve gotten all these requirements now we’re just going to go build something and see what people like. And then we’ll get comments in an email or maybe in a Google Doc, about what they like and what they don’t, this is very disconnected. And what we were able to help them to do was create something that really integrated things together so that the visualization on the website was intricately linked to defining what those different elements of the site were actually getting done for the user. So users jobs, how that related to particular functional requirements of the site, and to get people to provide feedback in next to that visual component about what they were thinking. And then they could relate that to variations that they were thinking about. So it became a way to get that collaboration accomplished. And to go from these sort of abstract needs down to very specific feature benefit trade offs, in a way that was visual and intuitive and participatory for people. And really repositioned what the company wants quite successfully. So that’s the sort of example of how you can use jobs to be done is not the only but one of the primary things that we do to lead to different management strategies, and in this case, repositioning the whole company.

Will Bachman 36:35
Great example, Steve, where is the best place for people who want to learn more about your firm to find to find you online?

Stephen Wunker 36:46
Sure, so I’ll give you two sites. So if you’re interested in jobs to be done, the microsite for our book is jobs roadmap.com jobs with an S roadmap calm. And that links to Microsoft on the company website. The company is new markets, advisors that’s markets for for this new markets advisors.com. And you’ll find all sorts of information about what we do around strategy, market research and innovation capability building.

Will Bachman 37:18
Fantastic. Well, I’ll include those links in the show notes. Steve, thank you so much for joining today. This was really great discussion. Oh, you bet. My pleasure.