Will Bachman 00:01
Hello, and welcome to Unleashed the show that explores how to thrive as an independent professional. Unleashed is produced by Umbrex, which connects you with world’s top independent management consultants. And I’m your host Will Bachman. I’m so excited to be here today with Carolyn Miranda, who is the founder and CEO of cultivating capital, a firm that helps certify businesses as B corporations, and helps those businesses implement sustainable business practices. And today, I’m gonna learn all about B corpse. So currently, welcome to the show. Thank you Well, so Carolyn, first educate me. My listeners probably know more about this than I do. But what is a B Corp?
Carolina Miranda 00:48
Sure, a B Corp is a business that makes a commitment to have a positive impact on all of its stakeholders. So it takes into account how it’s affecting its employees, its suppliers, its local community, and it commits to acting in their best interest. So it takes a very holistic view of what its role is within the business and social community. And in order to assess its practices and improve its practices, it actually undergoes a third party certification process. So there’s a nonprofit based in Pennsylvania called B lab, and they are the ones who came up with this. And in order to get certified as a B Corp, a business needs to complete a B impact assessment, which is a very comprehensive questionnaire, it looks at five key areas, governance, workers, community, environment, and customers. And in that, in all of those areas, it basically asks a lot of very detailed questions about a company’s practices. When a company answers enough of those questions in the affirmative, it can submit that for submit their assessment for review to be lab. And then they’re assigned a standards analyst. That analyst will then ask for documentation to verify everything that the company has said it’s doing. And when that process is complete, then the company gets this third party certification, which is B Corp certification. And that’s the part that I help clients with. Now, it’s important to understand that this is related to but separate from Benefit corporations. So benefit corporations are a legal status similar to a C Corp, or an S corp or an LLC, that a business can decide to set up as, it’s actually something that was started by b lab. So this nonprofit recognized that in order to really have companies not just acting in a positive way when it was convenient, but making sure that companies were actually willing to commit themselves legally to taking all stakeholders stakeholders into account, that it would be beneficial to actually codify that in their, you know, in what they do as a corporation. And so, prior to the emergence of benefit corporations, there were only c corpse and s corpse, which is what most of us are familiar with. Once B lab started working on a state by state level to actually pass benefit corporation legislation, it now exists in approximately 30 states, including Delaware, which obviously is an important one. And so the benefit corporation is a legal status. The way that they’re related, of course, is that the it tends to attract similar types of businesses. But it’s important to understand that if you choose to set up as a benefit corporation, you actually don’t have to go and become a certified B Corp. There’s some some nuances involved but you don’t have to go and become a certified B Corp. If you do become a certified B Corp, and you are a C Corp or an S Corp. Then you do commit to converting to a benefit corporation within two years. After your certification as part of your certification process. You make that commitment. If you’re an LLC, then what you need to do is update your member agreement to include specific language about the purpose of Your business? So that’s probably the long answer to your your question. But that’s the basic gist of what what a B Corp is and how it’s distinct from a benefit corporation.
Will Bachman 05:12
Okay, so a B Corp is a certification, then that an LLC could get or an S corp, or a C Corp,
Carolina Miranda 05:24
or a sole proprietor for that matter. It’s it’s a specific certification for a business.
Will Bachman 05:31
Okay, great. Um, let’s have a bunch of questions about this. Maybe. First is, what’s the advantage of getting the certification? You know, do our due, are there like big corporate customers out there that will be more likely to hire you, the government may be more likely to hire you. I mean, you could probably do these things, you know, on your own. So why go to all the trouble of getting a certification?
Carolina Miranda 06:04
Yeah, that’s a good question. So one of the benefits is that because the B Corp certification process is so rigorous, it is actually becoming very well respected. Some people consider it kind of analogous to what Fairtrade organic might be, but for a whole company, and the truth is that there really isn’t anything else that is quite like it out there. So the certification is, is rigorous enough that when a company goes through it, they’re really setting themselves apart in the marketplace. Just to give you an idea, there’s about 3000 b corpse worldwide. So this isn’t just a certification that’s available in the US, it’s actually available worldwide, there’s B corpse on every continent except for Antarctica. And so when a company has that B Corp certification, they are really setting themselves apart in a very significant way. A couple of B corpse that listeners might be familiar with are Patagonia. And Ben and Jerry’s denote has to know North America has also gone through the B Corp certification process. athleta, as a subsidiary of the gap is also a certified B Corp. And so it’s really something that is very, very much for early adopters at this point. And so in the sense that the people that are willing to commit themselves to undergoing this process are the ones who are very deeply committed to it. It is something that’s available to everyone. In certain industries, of course, it’s going to be more relevant than others. So one place where B Corp certification is really becoming significant is with consumer goods and consumer facing brands such as the ones that I mentioned. So certainly, with products that are available to consumers that the B Corp logo does have, it carries a lot of weight to it. Now, as far as attracting, you know, different types of clients, one of the things that we’re seeing in the sustainability space is that more companies are putting into their RFPs that they want to know what type of environmental and social commitment, a, you know, a business has. And so this becomes one very clear and specific way to kind of send that signal that a business has done its due diligence and has really evaluated its social and environmental impact. And one of the things actually that we’re seeing now, now being especially I’d say the last few months, maybe the last couple of years, is there is growing interest from large corporations in B Corp certification. So when B corpse started the founding B corpse were certified in 2007. It was something that very much attracted a lot of smaller businesses, medium sized businesses. But now that it’s gained traction, it’s actually gained a lot of attention at the multinational level. So there was actually a group that was put together. Paul Polman from Unilever has been very involved in looking at how to adequately assess the operations of large multinational corporations using the B impact assessment. So it’s definitely something that is on the radar of larger corporations. And I expect that we’re only going to see that increase in the coming years.
Will Bachman 09:52
All right. So let’s say for a listener, this job is running a independent draft. Or a bowtique professional services firm? Have you seen any cases where large companies or medium sized companies will like preferentially seek out a professional services firm that is certified as a B Corp certification?
Carolina Miranda 10:19
Yeah, absolutely. In fact, one of the things that is very appealing for service professionals is that there are business development opportunities within the B Corp community itself. So because B Corp certification is so rigorous, and because the companies that and businesses again, it might be a, you know, a sole proprietor, because they are making this commitment, there is a lot of interest in, in working together and in kind of strengthening those relationships. So I would say, you know, one opportunity is definitely within the B Corp community. And then the second thing, particularly for consultants, who might be doing type of any type of social or environmental work with clients, it is something that clients, you know, companies are thinking about what they’re looking at, and it may give them an advantage over somebody who is not as well versed or does not have that third party certification.
Will Bachman 11:22
Okay. So one thing I have in mind here is, how is a B Corp? How does it balance the needs of these multiple stakeholders? So let’s say you have a company, I mean, like maybe like one that you mentioned, you know, Patagonia, right. So Patagonia has employees, and, you know, for the impact assessment in terms of the interests of employees, they could say, well, you visit before they got the B Corp, they were making a certain amount of profit, so Well, okay, employees, they could just pay all the employees. Right. And then if you’re also supposed to take care of your stakeholder, your suppliers, you can say, Well, you could just raise the prices that you paid all your suppliers. And if you’re supposed to take care of the environment, you say, well, they can take all the profit and, you know, devoted to environmental causes. And I know Patagonia actually does acidic stuff. So how do you sort of with a traditional for profit business, it’s pretty clear what you’re trying to optimize. You’re trying to maximize profit, but keeping in account all these other things for the long term. Good at the business, you will take care of your employees and take your customers to your suppliers. But with young people, how do companies? Are they expected to balance these competing interests?
Carolina Miranda 12:45
Right, so one of the things that’s important to just keep in mind as as we talk about this, is it B corpse are all for profit businesses. So there is sometimes I do get asked like if a nonprofit can be a B Corp, or how that works. And every single business that’s a certified B Corp, they’re running a profitable business. Because at the end of the day, if you’re not making a profit, you don’t have a business. And so all of this positive impact that you’re trying to have out in the world isn’t going to happen. So definitely be corpse have to keep profitability. Top of Mind. The way that it gets balanced, though, is that, again, they take a broader view of how you’re generating value. And so where, say a non B corporate traditional company might say, Well, why are we going to pay employees to volunteer, for example, you know, we could, if we’re paying them, we want them to be working. Otherwise, you know, that’s not necessarily the best way for us to, you know, we could use those funds in another way, for example, whereas a B Corp would say, well, by paying an employee to volunteer, we’re doing two things. One, we’re actually helping our local community. And this generally speaking, the stronger and more resilient that your local communities are, the better that’s going to be for your business. And then second of all, we are generating goodwill among our employees, which actually can help with recruitment and retention. And those are both things that we see with B corpse almost to a person every time I talk to a B Corp, they say that one of the biggest benefits is that it helps with recruitment and retention especially among millennials. So a lot of people right now they are generally speaking looking for a company to work with that they’re going to feel good about and be corpse actually help people to fill that need of working for a purpose that is larger than themselves. And I’ve seen that even for myself. I actually my contractors, my intern I don’t seek them out, they actually come to me because I’m a big corporate and they’re attracted to the work that I’m doing. So you see it at all levels. But that’s really the way that a B Corp will balance things out is they’ll start looking at what are the things that align with who we are as a company? And how do we invest in those things. Another example, and again, Patagonia was instrumental in this is there’s a program called 1%. For the planet, where companies will agree to donate 1% of revenues to environmental organizations, a non B Corp might look at that and say, Well, you know, why are we going to donate to an environmental organization, when, you know, we can go ahead and take those profits. And, you know, give them back to employees as a bonus, or, you know, we can reinvest that. But a B Corp might say, you know, what, we recognize that we are interdependent with the environment that we’re in all of the resources that we use to make our products to transport our products, all of that is dependent upon natural resources. And so it’s really in our best interest to protect those resources. And so therefore, joining a program like 1%, for the planet actually makes sense. And again, it helps employees to feel good about the company that they’re working with. It sends a message to customers, that this company actually stands for something everybody knows that every single company that exists has to make a profit. So when that’s the baseline, one of the ways that you can actually differentiate his say, you know what, we make a profit. And we also take care of our environment, and we take care of our local community, and we take care of our employees, and we’re looking for the long term. And when you’re able to do that, effectively, then you actually get more customer loyalty than you might get otherwise. And I think Patagonia is a great example of that.
Will Bachman 17:13
Yeah. So those are some helpful examples. I guess maybe I’m not clear on are those is there just sort of a big menu have sort of optional things? Or let’s take maybe just the environmental commitment, in particular, as an example, to get certified as a B Corp? Is there a set of mandatory things like you must devote 1% of revenues to the planet? And, or? Or maybe is that just one of the several different optional things you can do? Walk me through some like the bare minimum requirements that you have to meet?
Carolina Miranda 17:48
Yeah, yeah, that’s, that’s a good question. So the way that the impact assessment is set up, there are actually no baseline requirements. So other than the legal requirement, which we already discussed, there’s no one single thing that it’s like, you absolutely have to do this in order to get certified as a B Corp. Rather, what it does is it asks a lot of questions like about 200, as you’re going through the assessment. And for each question, depending upon how you answer it, you will get points. And so you’re basically being rewarded for your beneficial for your positive practices, rather than having to meet a specific baseline. So the examples that I gave are all things that A, B Corp can do, but they actually don’t have to do any of those. And so when I was talking about the commitment, it’s not that a company is saying, well, I commit to this one specific practice, such as giving a percentage of our revenues to charity, what the company is doing is actually committing to a wide range of practices that cover governance workers, community, environment, and customers. And because you have to reach at points, then you actually have to do quite a few different things. You can’t say, well, we have a recycling program in place. And so you know, now we can qualify as a B Corp, you know, you will get a little bit of credit for having a recycling program in place, but you’re going to have to do a lot more. So the way that it’s set up because there actually is no specific practice that you absolutely have to do. It becomes a very flexible and robust framework that any business can use. So that’s why you could be a sole proprietor and get certified or you know, you could be done known and get certified because every company is Going to approach it a little differently. Maybe some companies score really highly on the worker piece, because they do some really great things with their employees. But maybe they don’t score as well on the environment, because maybe they just haven’t really delved into that too, too deeply. Okay,
Will Bachman 20:18
that’s super helpful. And could you maybe let’s just go through those five categories. And you already gave like two examples, but they would go through the subcategories. And you could give sort of two or three examples of things that you get points for in each one of them. Like the government, I wasn’t sure if it was a government or more like corporate governance. And let me just go through each one and start with government. What are some examples of things and things that you could get
Carolina Miranda 20:44
from that? Sure. So that one is actually governance, as in corporate governance. And so it a couple of things that come up on there is has the company made the legal commitment to take all stakeholders into account? So I mentioned that if you’re a corporation, you commit to meeting that requirement within two years after certification, but you get credit on the impact assessment, if you actually formalize that commitment, before completing the certification. So basically, if you don’t wait two years, and you kind of do that early on, that’s one question that is on that on the governance section. A couple of other things might be having a code of ethics having a whistleblowing policy, and not just, I should say, with a code of ethics, not not just having it. But what are you doing, actually to train your workers on that? So is it included in your onboarding materials? Is it included? Are you doing regular annual trainings on it? Another question that comes up on there is how the company is reporting on its impact? So is a company generating some type of impact report? Is that impact report publicly available? Does that impact report adhere to a third party standard? So those are some of the things that come up in the governance section. The next section on the impact assessment is around workers. And so there there are definitely specific questions about benefits that are offered. So for example, you know, at what point what’s the percentage at which the company is matching the 401k? What kinds of benefits health benefits are being offered? Are health benefits available to part time employees. In addition to the benefits, the the impact assessment will also ask questions around professional development and career training opportunities that are available, it will also look at equity, diversity and inclusion. So is the company how what’s the diversity in the company and not just in terms of say race and gender, but even age diversity? So how diverse is a company because generally speaking, there’s a lot of data out there that is showing that the more diverse that a company is, the more resilient that it is, the more ideas that are coming into your kind of avoiding groupthink. So there’s there’s a lot of reasons that kind of underlie what some of these questions are for. Another thing that might come up on the worker section is if the company has any type of employee ownership opportunities. So again, that becomes a way of making capital more accessible to people, because now it’s not just the owners that are basically reaping the bulk of the profits, but it is all workers who might have an opportunity to take part in that. So that’s the workers section. In the community section, the questions we’ll look at, what is the company doing in terms of charitable giving practices in terms of community service? We already kind of talked a little bit about that. But really in the community section, it takes a deep dive into supply chain. So what is the company doing to evaluate its supply chain and their invite range from you know, our suppliers asked to complete a code of conduct our suppliers asked to report on their own social and environmental performance in any way. R is a company working with local suppliers, which actually can have a significant impact on the local community is a company working with independent suppliers. So it really will help the company to assess what is happening in its supply chain, recognizing that that’s one of the most challenging parts for, you know, for a lot of companies to assess in the environmental on the environment side, some of the questions that might come up are going to be around the facility, you know, what are some of the more specific practices that are being followed in the in the facility, such as you know, anything from LED lights to low flow water fixtures, but it really looks beyond that it looks at renewable energy usage, it looks at has the company calculated its carbon footprint. And if the company has calculated its carbon footprint is it investing in offset as a way of reducing its overall carbon footprint? If it’s a product based company, because you have both product and service businesses that can obviously get certified if it’s a product based company, then this is where the impact assessment, we’ll delve a bit more into the manufacturing process and distribution channels. So all of that gets looked at in the environment. And then in the customer section, it’s really looking at two things. One is what is a company doing to be a good, you know, a good steward of its customers. And so that can include things like being transparent with how information is being collected, and how it’s being used. And the second thing that it looks at, is, is the company supporting, for example, purpose driven or underserved customers in any way. So this is where if say, a company has developed a micro financial program that is benefiting, you know, people on the bottom of the pyramid, they’re definitely helping to serve an underserved community. And so therefore, they’re going to be able to get credit on the impact assessment for that. So that’s, that’s a very high level, quick overview. But I hope that that gives you an idea of what gets assessed in different parts of impact assessment.
Will Bachman 27:10
Yeah, that’s a fantastic overview. Tell me a little bit sounds like a lot of big work and a lot of stuff to do. Tell me a little bit about the cost and the process to apply for this certification. It sounds like it’s a lot of work. I mean, even just one of those things of documenting all of your, you know, your carbon footprint, and so forth, just one of those things could be a letter, what’s it cost to apply? Typically, to prepare your submission, and then then I imagine there must be a fee to this to the certifying body as well.
Carolina Miranda 27:53
Sure, there are fees that are due to be lab annually, and that is publicly available on their website, which is B Corp dotnet. And there’s a link there for certification. And on that page, you will find a lot of information about the certification process. And that’s where the the annual fees are listed, it tends to be on average, roughly speaking, maybe less than 1% of revenues, just to give you an an idea of what it might cost, but it’s broken out based upon a company’s revenues. And again, that’s all publicly available. In order to get certified, you can start the process either by going to their website, clicking on certification, and then I think they have a GET STARTED link, or there’s another website called B Impact Assessment dotnet, they both will lead into the same place in the same in the sense that you start the impact assessment, and that is a tool that is freely available, anybody can go into the impact assessment and start working on it. So there’s actually no cost to submit your impact assessment to B lab, where the cost comes in is after you’ve submitted your assessment After you have completed the review process, and you have qualified for certification, then at that point, you are expected to pay your fees for the first year and then you get invoiced, you know, annually thereafter. Now, that said, there are definitely some expenses that you might incur as you’re going through the process, as you mentioned, you know, carbon footprint calculations being one of them. And and then certainly, if you’re working with a consultant such as myself, then you know, the fees are of course separate.
Will Bachman 29:47
Yeah. So, what should an order of magnitude in your experience what percent of people that submit an application actually get approved.
Carolina Miranda 30:02
So what I was actually told by someone at B lab is that it’s less than 50% of companies that submit an impact assessment actually proceed to certification. And that could be due to a number of different factors. It might be that they actually filled out the impact assessment wrong. They might, there’s different tracks on the impact assessment, depending upon you know, whether you’re a wholesale retail whether you actually have control of your manufacturing facilities, right it can get, there’s a few different categories. And sometimes when people are filling it out on their own, they actually end up inadvertently filling out the wrong one. And then they realize at the end, that it, they actually should have been filling out a different one, they might find that they have filled it out on the basis of things that they hope to do or are planning to do. But the way that the impact assessment is set up, it’s not actually looking at, it’s not aspirational. In that sense. It’s really looking at what’s your track record, what can you actually demonstrate that you’ve done? Another reason why people might not be able to get certified as maybe they didn’t have their documentation in place. And so they answered certain questions. And then when they get to the review process, maybe they actually don’t have the documentation to actually back up everything that they’ve answered. So these are all reasons why a company might not get certified, when they submit their impact assessment and go through the review process. That said, it’s not as though you know, they get kicked out automatically and don’t qualify, because they filled it out incorrectly, the standard analyst will generally be able to provide recommendations for improvement. And the impact assessment has a built in feature that helps a company to identify areas where they can improve. So based upon how other companies have answered this, they will say, just an automatically generated report might say, you know, here’s some, some measures that you might want to consider. One One other thing that I forgot to mention, but that is important, is in addition to completing the impact assessment, there’s also a disclosure questionnaire. And that questionnaire will ask about any corporate practices that may not have come up on the impact assessment itself. So that might include bankruptcies, on site fatalities, law lawsuits, you know, specific industries, such as, you know, gambling or working in conflict zones, any any kind of things like that will come up during the impact or excuse me, during the disclosure questionnaire, because again, be lab wants to do its due diligence before issuing the final certification. Like I said, it’s pretty comprehensive. Yeah.
Will Bachman 33:09
So if you if you don’t get if you fail the certification, did they give you feedback and say, Well, you know, we suggest you tweak these things, and then you can, like, you don’t have to resubmit the whole thing again. But if you come back, and you didn’t give us this form, and you didn’t know this thing, what you said you’re gonna do it, but once you’ve actually done it, then come back to us and just re tweak it, like so. Or is it just like, oh, you failed cuplock? Try next year?
Carolina Miranda 33:35
Yeah, no, it’s definitely not a matter of you failed. And so you can’t do it. When you are working with a standard analyst. When you get to that? Well, let me let me actually take a step back. When you’re submitting your impact assessment, you know, if they find that there’s significant changes that need to be made, they’ll let you know that when you are assigned a standard analyst, and you’re actually providing your documentation, if it turns out that you are not at a verified score of 80, then like I said, they will make suggestions for what you need to do to increase your score. And they’ll give you some time, they’ll give you like, a 30 day period, to you know, go ahead and make those fixes. If it turns out that you don’t qualify. At that point, you can always continue making improvements and then resubmit your your assessment when you’re ready when you’ve got things in place.
Will Bachman 34:35
Okay. And we talked about costs a little bit. When you talk to a business owner who is preparing to go through this process. What sort of expectations do you set in terms of just the amount of time it’s going to take Is this something that you pulled together in a weekend that it takes two months of dedicated, you know, work, order of magnitude, how much sort of time should it Person expected player to filling out all these forms and getting all the documentation?
Carolina Miranda 35:06
Yeah, I would say I usually tell people like four to six months is how long it’s going to take us to get everything ready. It might. And that’s because, you know, people are still running a business. And so you know, even though this is very related to what they’re doing, it still means that they need to not just get the paperwork in place, but they actually need to go through and make improvements. Like, for example, if they don’t yet have a charitable giving policy, or program in place, and they need to put that in place, it might take some time to actually get that policy there, get it through HR, make sure you’re getting the word out to employees, make sure that you know, you’ve thought about what that’s going to look like. So for a smaller business, I would say you know, four to six months to get it ready to submit to be lab for a larger business, you could be looking at, you know, six to 12 months, for you know, a multinational, you could be looking at, you know more than that. And the other thing to keep in mind is there is really a lot of growing interest in B corpse. It’s certainly something I’ve seen a few years ago, people didn’t really know what B corpse were all about. Now, I think that the word is getting out about what B corpse are, and it’s generating a lot of interest in the certification. What this means is that B lab, which is, like I said, the certifying body, they actually have a backlog that they’re that they’re working through. So you submit your assessment, and then you actually might just be waiting for a couple of months for them to actually, you know, get to you so that they can actually start the certification of that final review process.
Will Bachman 36:56
And then if you if you do get the certification, you mentioned earlier, that you’re also committing to shift over to be a benefit corporation as a legal entity change. That’s if you’re an S corp or a C Corp. You said if you’re an LLC, you can say the same but you update your operating agreement. What’s involved in that change from an S corp, or a C Corp to this benefit Corp? Does it have tax implications? Or what’s typically involved in that?
Carolina Miranda 37:30
Yeah, usually what it involves is amending your Articles of Incorporation. So there’s specific language that needs to be added. And that’s also available on the B Corp website, B Corp dotnet. Go to certification, and then there’s a link there for the legal requirement where you can actually see what the details are. But in general, it’s updating your operating agreement. So usually, an attorney, you know, will handle that it doesn’t take an attorney that long to get it done. From what I’ve seen, as far as tax implications go, it’s not a benefit corporation is not recognized as a different tax status for federal tax purposes. So what that means is, when a company converts to become a Sikh or excuse me a benefit corporation, they can still file their taxes as either a C Corp or an S Corp. If you’re an LLC, you’re still going to file as an LLC. So, so it has no direct tax implications in general, that said, I’m not an accountant. But I do know B Corp accountant that I could refer people to if they have questions, or most of my clients will talk to their accountant and you know, get get the details. But generally speaking, there shouldn’t be any significant tax implications.
Will Bachman 38:56
Okay. Does it change anything on the governance side? So if you were privately owned now, do you have to have some representative community or have your employees or something on your board or anything like that?
Carolina Miranda 39:10
So the benefit corporation status has been passed, like I said, in about 30 states, and each one handles it a little differently. So you would need to look to see specifically what the requirement is for your state. And that’s where it’s going to be best to work with an attorney in that state who’s familiar with benefit corporation. But generally speaking, there are a couple of three requirements you know, one is you do need to amend your Articles of Incorporation to basically reflect a commitment to all stakeholders. The second thing is, generally you need to specify how you’re going to evaluate your impact and often that will include you Using a third party standard, so the B impact assessment is 1/3 party standard that can be used, but it’s not the only one. And so in different states, there might be different ones that can be accepted. And then the third thing is you need to report annually on how you are progressing towards your stated purpose and your impact. And so generally that involves producing some type of annual report.
Will Bachman 40:30
Right. Wow. Amazing. So this has been incredibly informative. Clearly, Kelly, Carolyn, thank you so much for walking me through this. Well, really know your stuff. How can people find you if they want to follow up and ask some more questions about this, maybe get your help on this topic? Where should people go?
Carolina Miranda 40:53
The best place to go is to my website, which is cultivating capital.com. So that’s cultivating capital calm, and then on there, there’s a contact form, they can fill that out, and I’d be happy to follow up with them. They’re also welcome to just email me directly. It’s just Carolina at cultivating capital calm,
Will Bachman 41:15
who currently, thank you so much for joining us today. I learned a ton and thanks for explaining to me about the course. Great, thank you. Well,